Who ‘wondered admiringly’ at the League of Nations to fulfill Revelation 17:8?

by Gilgamesh in

i didn't recall this topic being discussed for quite a while, so i am including the first half of an article i posted on another site: , .

who ‘wondered admiringly’ at the league of nations to fulfill revelation 17:8?.

summary: the watchtower explains that the initial beast of revelation 17:8 is the “league of nations.” revelation 17:8 (nwt) says that persons whose names have not been written upon the scroll of life will “wonder admiringly” at this beast.

Gilgamesh

As a followup on the above, there is more information about the fallacy of making so much of that "political expression" statement by the FCCC (Federal Council of the Churches of Christ) that was already discussed here several years ago: https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/17563/fccc-league-on-nations-un-watchtower-rare-article?size=20&page=1 There were pictures of the original FCCC source material in those posts. The links to the actual source material do not show up any more on that thread (it's 15 years old). The same resource pages can be found here: https://books.google.com/books?id=lEVQAQAAMAAJ

The book is called: Federal Council Bulletin: A Journal of Religious Co-operation and Inter-church Activities, Volumes 1-3. The quote(s) in question are found on page 12 of Volume 2 (1919), especially at the end of the fourth paragraph under Declarations. (The book starts out with 1918, and the page numbering starts over for 1919 and 1920.) Note that similar sentiments can be found in that book as early as January 1918.

That thread points out that the most serious problem with the Watch Tower’s claim is that the WTS doesn’t seem to realize or admit that this publication of the Federal Council of Churches of Christ was speaking about what the League “should be” not what it was. They were speaking of an “ideal.” They were not promoting “worship” any more than the Watchtower itself was in the article they published the following month with similar sentiments. Also, this declaration about the proposed League only represented a small number of Protestant churches although it was presented as representing all of Christendom, Protestant and Catholic. The statement itself was evidently an invention of the executive committee of the FCCC.

I just noticed from another search on "League of Nations" that "sf" (skally) had already posted Carl Jonsson's article for discussion here: https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/14143/league-united-nations-prophetic-speculation and the support of the UN (League) in 1919 was also discussed here: https://www.jehovahs-witness.com/topic/12890/wt-supported-un-1919-wt by "Messenger". In that thread "Satanus" also drew a parallel to Rutherford's compromising 1933 Declaration (and the letter to Hitler) where the Declaration said:

“Instead of being against the principles advocated by the government of Germany, we stand squarely for such principles, and point out that Jehovah God through Christ Jesus will bring about the full realization of these principles.”

In other words, the German Nazi ideals, while not the equivalent of the kingdom of God, were at least a human, ‘political expression’ of the same principles as the kingdom of God. In the “Letter to Hitler” the same idea:

“To the contrary, referring to the purely religious and unpolitical goals and efforts of the [Bible Students], it can be said that these are in full agreement with the identical goals of the national government of the German Reich.”

Doing a bit more reading about the League, I noticed that it really turns out to be very awkward for the WTS (and others religions, too) to make application between the League and the beast of Revelation 17:8. I had never really read about the IPU before (League's predecessor) and its history reminded me even more of how silly the whole prophetic application is.

Whether or not such an organization as the League of Nations actually fits the ideas of Revelation 17:8 is a much more basic question that JWs rarely, if ever, would ask themselves. A good summary of the history of the League of Nations can be found on Wikipedia. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/League_of_Nations . Note that while the League was formally founded on January 10, 1920, it was being organized and defined from the very beginning of World War I. As of late 1917 and early 1918 the form it would take was directly anticipated with U.S. involvement and promotion by President Woodrow Wilson. Also note that the League basically inherited the organizations and structure of one of the previous attempts to create such an entity, the IPU or Inter-Parliamentary Union, the League’s forerunner. (see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inter-Parliamentary_Union )

The IPU is of interest from another perspective, too. The Watch Tower publications have made a lot over the idea that the League “died” and came to life again after WWII as the United Nations. The problem is that could be said of a lot of organizations whose primary aim was to promote peace. How astonishing would it be that a generally “pacifist” leaning organization might temporarily disappear during a large war? The IPU was, of course, a relatively neutral and pacifist organization, too, and the book Neutrality in Twentieth Century Europe, p. 298 explains this and adds: “The outbreak of the First World War prevented further action, and during the war most of the IPU’s work was seriously hampered.” (Although effectively replaced by the League of Nations after the war, the IPU resumed full operations and continues to this day.) For that matter, something similar happened to the Watch Tower Society itself because of the same war.

So if it happened to the League’s “predecessor,” then how appropriate is it to say that the world would be amazed that an organization attempting neutrality and peace might disappear for a while?

If others (see Jonsson's article) could predict the demise of the League after failing in its agenda during WWII (just as the IPU had failed to keep peace in WWI) then it really was not astonishing at all, and for this reason the League of Nations does not fit Revelation 17:8.

A more salient point is this: The Bible often represents nations as beasts. It might be true that an international organization could act in a vicious, inhumane, beastly manner, similar to some individual nations. But how logical is it to depict an organization that tries to promote political neutrality, peace and goodwill as a beast? When the war came, did anyone expect the League of Nations to put up a vicious, beastly fight to stay in power? Was there really something so astonishing and amazing about its temporary disappearance and reappearance when the war was over? If it reappeared as the United Nations, has that entity really shown itself to be a vicious beast?

P.S. It's also "funny" that the WTS likes to use the term "worship" for how Christendom (especially) is supposedly blasphemously treating this beast as the only hope for peace. Yet it's somehow inappropriate for Christians to use the same term "worship" for how they view Jesus.

6

Who ‘wondered admiringly’ at the League of Nations to fulfill Revelation 17:8?

by Gilgamesh in

i didn't recall this topic being discussed for quite a while, so i am including the first half of an article i posted on another site: , .

who ‘wondered admiringly’ at the league of nations to fulfill revelation 17:8?.

summary: the watchtower explains that the initial beast of revelation 17:8 is the “league of nations.” revelation 17:8 (nwt) says that persons whose names have not been written upon the scroll of life will “wonder admiringly” at this beast.

Gilgamesh

I didn't recall this topic being discussed for quite a while, so I am including the first half of an article I posted on another site: ,

Who ‘wondered admiringly’ at the League of Nations to fulfill Revelation 17:8?

Summary: The Watchtower explains that the initial beast of Revelation 17:8 is the “League of Nations.” Revelation 17:8 (NWT) says that persons whose names have not been written upon the scroll of life will “wonder admiringly” at this beast. Yet, in 1919 the Watchtower not only “wondered admiringly” at the League of Nations, they went so far as to actually use sentences that contained those literal words:

“We cannot but admire the high principles embodied in the proposed League of Nations.”

“This fact makes all the more wonderful the ideals which they express.”

(Revelation 17:8)  The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction. And when they see how the wild beast was, but is not, and yet will be present, those who dwell on the earth will wonder admiringly, but their names have not been written upon the scroll of life from the founding of the world. [NWT Reference Edition]

The 2013 Revised NWT changes “will wonder admiringly” and instead uses the term “will be amazed.” I couldn’t help but ‘wonder in amazement’ about whether a certain post discussing this same subject had already come to the attention of the translators. It was a post I had put on beliefnet.com several years prior which made the same point made here, along with some additional information.

For many decades, the Watchtower has identified the initial beast of Revelation 17:8 as the League of Nations:

*** w85 10/1 p. 15 par. 9 Peace, Security, and the ‘Image of the Beast’ ***
9 Our identification of this beast is confirmed by some further details given by the angel: “The wild beast that you saw was, but is not, and yet is about to ascend out of the abyss, and it is to go off into destruction.” (Revelation 17:8) This has already been fulfilled in part. The second world war effectively killed the League of Nations.

In various places, the Watch Tower publications have repeatedly reminded readers (over 200 different times) that the clergy of Christendom, both Catholic and Protestant, have promoted the rejection of Christ’s kingdom and even the “worship” of this beast by hailing the League of Nations as the “political expression of God’s Kingdom on earth.” Note:

*** ka chap. 11 pp. 197-198 pars. 27-28 “Here Is the Bridegroom!” ***
27 The position taken by the “discreet” virgin class on this issue was unequivocal from the start. In evidence of this, on Sunday afternoon, September 7, 1919, at the Cedar Point convention, President Rutherford gave his public address on “The Hope for Distressed Humanity,” in which he pointed out God’s disapproval of the League of Nations. To quote from the report published in the Sandusky (Ohio) Star-Journal on Monday, September 8, 1919:
“President Rutherford . . .declared a League of Nations formed by the political and economic forces moved by a desire to better mankind by establishment of peace and plenty would accomplish great good, and then asserted that the Lord’s displeasure is certain to be visited upon the League, however, because the clergy—Catholic and Protestant—claiming to be God’s representatives, have abandoned his plan and endorse the League of Nations, hailing it as a political expression of Christ’s kingdom on earth.—The Watch Tower, under date of October 1, 1919, page 298, column 1.”

*** ka chap. 13 p. 250 par. 22 Settling Accounts with the Slaves of Today ***
22 Of course, the sectarian church members of Christendom . . . . took a compromising course with the politicians and militarists of this world. . . . They turned their interest and attention to the proposed League of Nations, which the Federal Council of the Churches of Christ in America called “the political expression of the Kingdom of God on earth.” (Isaiah 9:6, 7) They tried to increase the number of supporters and worshipers of that man-made international organization for world peace and security.

Was the Watch Tower’s position on this issue really “unequivocal from the start”? In answering this question note the words that are underlined and highlighted from the February 15, 1919 Watchtower:

“We cannot but admire the high principles embodied in the proposed League of Nations, formulated undoubtedly by those who have no knowledge of the great plan of God. This fact makes all the more wonderful the ideals which they express. For instance, it has been made plain by President Wilson and the advocates of his ideas that the proposed League of Nations is more than merely a league to enforce peace. They would not have us consider it to exclusively from the standpoint of politics or of military relations. It should be considered as fully from the economic and social points of view. The President’s idea seems to be that the League of Nations which he proposes would stand for world service rather than mere world regulation in the military sense, and that the very smallest of nations shall be participants in its every arrangement. In other words, his idea undoubtedly is that the league shall not be established merely for the purpose of promoting peace by threat or coercion; but that its purpose, when put into operation, will be to make all nations of earth one great family, working together for the common benefit in all the avenues of national life. Truly this is idealistic, and approximates in a small way that which God has foretold that he will bring about after this great time of trouble.” — Watch Tower, February 15, 1919, p.51 [Reprints page 6389].

In other words, this 1919 Watchtower considers the League of Nations to be, essentially, ‘the political expression of God’s kingdom on earth.’ In fact, a careful reading of the article gives at least some evidence that this particular phrase was already known to the writers of this Watchtower article, and this article was intended to show agreement with that idea.

That might sound surprising coming from the same magazine that has declared itself not to have ever compromised on that particular issue in the way that Catholic and Protestant clergy and their constituents had supposedly done. But the Watchtower took it a bit further, literally admitting their amazement at the wonderful and admirable ideals of the League of Nations.

42

Trey Bundy: One Year of Reporting JW Child Abuse - Your comments please!

by AndersonsInfo in

http://watchtowerdocuments.org/trey-bundy-one-year-of-reporting-jw-child-abuse/.

trey bundy: one year of reporting jw child abuse.

it’s been one year since trey bundy first reported the watchtower’s child abuse problems.. twelve months ago the center for investigative reporting (cir) began publishing information about jehovah’s witnesses and their cover-up of child sexual abuse on their website, reveal.

Gilgamesh

Of all the issues facing JWs, this is the one that has the most power to make people think for themselves. A religion can have the most indefensible and even ridiculous doctrines, and this can all be ignored and dismissed. Abuse of children and subsequent cover-ups can not be ignored by as many people. It's the difference in comedy and tragedy.

Every single article has a powerful effect. And Trey's articles are doing a great job to make youth safer.

11

Max Larson's archived experience on tv-jw-org includes an AWKWARD statement

by Gilgamesh in

this isn't about anything sordid (or morbid, or reported that knorr did).. it's just that i found an odd-sounding statement in the archived interview that appeared at about 31m20s in the december 2014 monthly tv.jw.org broadcast (or at 4m35s in the stand-alone larson interview also on tv.jw.org).

it seems to reveal an attitude that you'd think would be obsolete about the power of the anointed.

in the attached image, as captioned by tv-jw-org, he said: "every overseer was anointed .

Gilgamesh

Vidiot,

True. A CO in CA just gave a talk in my parents Cong last week where he speaks of a specific but limited number of people (a few hundred) who can be resurrected per day in the 365,000 day reign (aka "millennium") so that JWs have a chance to study with all of them before 20 billion or so finally get resurrected.

11

Our CLAM meeting (vid): SELF-NEGATION is the first "treasure" from first meeting segment

by Gilgamesh in

in the first sample video of the clam meeting (christian life and ministry) at about 5 minutes, 50 seconds in, a brother (steven phillips) is assigned the first segment of the new meeting, "treasures from god's word.

" ( http://tv.jw.org/#video/vodstudio/pub-jwbrd_201510_5_video ).

he shows just how sloppy the wts still is at trying to explain the deeper meanings of scriptures.

Gilgamesh

sparrowdown, Yeah, I know it should be "O-CLAM," but that didn't sound enough like "CLAN meeting," so I thought the compromise should be "Our CLAM" meeting. But then I remembered that the now-obsolete pamphlet "Our Kingdom Ministry" is still just called "km" or "Kingdom Ministry."

11

Max Larson's archived experience on tv-jw-org includes an AWKWARD statement

by Gilgamesh in

this isn't about anything sordid (or morbid, or reported that knorr did).. it's just that i found an odd-sounding statement in the archived interview that appeared at about 31m20s in the december 2014 monthly tv.jw.org broadcast (or at 4m35s in the stand-alone larson interview also on tv.jw.org).

it seems to reveal an attitude that you'd think would be obsolete about the power of the anointed.

in the attached image, as captioned by tv-jw-org, he said: "every overseer was anointed .

Gilgamesh

millie21

It's just as odd that C.T.Russell published Watch Towers that referred to the William Miller as "Father Miller." (Miller was the author of the Great Disappointment of 1844 and the greatest prophetic failure in modern history.)

C.T.Russell also continued to maintain all along that 1844 was a date that fulfilled Bible prophecy. He never repudiated that idea even after 1914 came and went.

24

STAY ALIVE 'TIL 2132! -- Generation (X′+X″) <= (1914+λ[A′]-α[A′]+λ[A″]-α[A″]-x) <= 2132

by Gilgamesh in

generation x+x=generation why?

already bringing "great tribulation" on watchtower readers.

the watch tower society has got some splane-ing to do.

Gilgamesh

I'm glad most people noticed that this was a joke. It was taken a little too seriously in a couple other places where this thing landed.

It's true that if there was another person in exactly the same situation as FWF who also overlapped with him, we could reach 2072 using the Splaine/Watchtower rules embedded in the formula. The less-than-or-equal-to 2132 part is an absolute maximum still using Splane/Watchtower rules.

But I just noticed a person's experience on tv.jw.org named Robert Hatzfeld who could extend the maximum limit 27 years greater than FWF's case. Robert was born in Allegheny, Pittsburgh, PA in 1903, came to Bethel very young and became one of the first to work at radio station WBBR. The video here ( http://tv.jw.org/#video/VODIntExp/pub-jwbiv_201509_1_VIDEO ) says he "served at Bethel for almost 75 years before finishing his earthly course in 2001."

So, plugging his numbers into the formula and assuming there could be another person with his same numbers, we would have the Great Tribulation as late as 2099. (2099 <= 2132) This is only 33 years away from the maximim date of 2132 for the Great Tribulation.

Witnesses.... start your 401(k)'s....

11

Our CLAM meeting (vid): SELF-NEGATION is the first "treasure" from first meeting segment

by Gilgamesh in

in the first sample video of the clam meeting (christian life and ministry) at about 5 minutes, 50 seconds in, a brother (steven phillips) is assigned the first segment of the new meeting, "treasures from god's word.

" ( http://tv.jw.org/#video/vodstudio/pub-jwbrd_201510_5_video ).

he shows just how sloppy the wts still is at trying to explain the deeper meanings of scriptures.

Gilgamesh

In the first sample video of the CLAM meeting (Christian Life And Ministry) at about 5 minutes, 50 seconds in, a brother (Steven Phillips) is assigned the first segment of the new meeting, "Treasures from God's Word." ( http://tv.jw.org/#video/VODStudio/pub-jwbrd_201510_5_VIDEO )

He shows just how sloppy the WTS still is at trying to explain the deeper meanings of scriptures. He quotes:

(2 Chronicles 29:27) 27 Then Hez·e·kiʹah said to offer up the burnt sacrifice on the altar; and at the time that the burnt offering started, the song of Jehovah started and also the trumpets, following the direction of the instruments of David the king of Israel.

Then he says:

According to the Insight book this seems to indicate that the trumpeters played in such a manner as to complement the other instruments rather than overshadow them. What an example for hard-working Christians. We work hard, but not in such a way as to draw undue attention to ourselves.

I have a couple problems with this. It's probably a good reminder considering some of the highly egotistical, overbearing elders that some congregations have to put up with. But this theme of self-negation is a very popular one among JWs lately, and it's been tied to giving up higher education and not keeping humble and quiet even if you have education in a certain area and might believe that a decision is the wrong one. A very recent Gilead Graduation talk on tv.jw.org also speaks of the new graduates downplaying their talents. This type of anti-intellectual self-negation can actually be dangerous in that it inadvertently creates even more overbearing, egotistical elders who are thus not to be contradicted even by someone who might know better than them due to education or professional experience.

The other thing is that it's just a pure guess about what might be going on in the context of the verse. The brother doesn't read the context of course, but this is how the following verse reads in the pre-2013 NWT:

(2 Chronicles 29:28) 28 And all the congregation were bowing down while the song was resounding and the trumpets were blaring—all this until the burnt offering was finished.

Granted, the Revised NWT tones down the verse by removing the word "blaring" and replacing it with "sounding" even though the old NWT was perfectly valid. And we all know the nature of blaring trumpets. Yet, evidently this seemed like a good verse for someone to use to make a point about how each Witness should tone it down when it comes to doing anything that might get some attention. No one should get the idea that it was ok to "blow your own trumpet" as the expression goes.

Tying it to the idea that is "problematic" if we work hard or do something exceptional in such a way that it brings attention to ourselves is actually not even a scriptural idea at all:

Prov 22:29 Have you seen a man skillful at his work?
He will stand before kings;
He will not stand before common men.

It might seem like a minor point, but it's common to high control groups to try to emphasize that the members are "sheep" even to the point of "sheepishness" when it comes to speaking out against wrong or bad decisions.

24

STAY ALIVE 'TIL 2132! -- Generation (X′+X″) <= (1914+λ[A′]-α[A′]+λ[A″]-α[A″]-x) <= 2132

by Gilgamesh in

generation x+x=generation why?

already bringing "great tribulation" on watchtower readers.

the watch tower society has got some splane-ing to do.

Gilgamesh

Generation X′+X″=Generation WHY? Already Bringing "Great Tribulation" on Watchtower Readers

The Watch Tower Society has got some “Splane-ing” to do. So they brought out Brother David Splane, hoping to bring some credibility to the incredible.

It is now literally possible to explain the potential length of the “overlapping generation” with a formula like the following one where X′ and X″ represent two different (overlapping) groups of anointed persons.

Generation (X′+X″) <= 1914+λ[A′]-α[A′]+λ[A″]-α[A″]-x

This formula is applicable where A′ and A″ are symbols referring to anointed persons qualified to be in group one and two, respectively. λ[A′] (lambda of A′) refers to the lifespan of the person in the first group, and α[A′] (alpha of A′) refers to the age at which A′ is said to have been anointed. A person qualifying for inclusion in the second group (A″), must not only be born, but must already be anointed, in or before the year A′ dies. We must also consider the following two limiting factors: First, the maximum length of a lifespan (λ) usually put in a range from 99 to 119 years. Second, the minimum age at which one may be considered to be anointed (α), put in a range from 10 to 20 years. And, finally, we must subtract x, the number of full years that the lifespan of A′ overlapped with A″. If A″ happened to be born in the same year that A′ died, then this x=0.

You’ll get your due in 2072!

If we plug in the information for FWF (Frederick W Franz) as a case that fits the first group of anointed, we would get:

Generation (X′+X″) <= 1914+99-20+λ[A″]-α[A″]

We would now only need to assume a lifespan and an age of anointing for a person who qualifies to be in the second group. If we also assume that A″ also has a lifespan of 99 years and also has an anointing age of 20, and was born in 1992, then the formula could be filled in as follows:

Generation (X′+X″) <= 1914+99-20+99-20 = 2072. Therefore, the overlapping generation could reach as far into the future as 2072.

2132: It’s around the corner, too!

Of course, we could also assume that FWF was not the ideal candidate to maximize the length of the generation. Perhaps there was a person, born in 1904, and anointed at 10 years old who also lived to be 119 years old. It doesn’t seem likely, of course, but it’s potentially possible. Perhaps it’s even more possible in the second group when medical advances of the 21st century might increase more lifespans toward and perhaps beyond the 119 year limit.

We could then, plug in our maximized examples for both groups and get the following numbers in our formula

Generation (X′+X″) <= 1914+119-10+119-10 = 2132. Therefore, the overlapping generation could reach as far into the future as the year 2132!

How ONE generation has become TEN generations.

Imagine! This means that “this generation” could potentially include, in my own case, my great grandfather, who was actually a co-worker with Russell in 1914, my grandfather (deceased), my father (living), myself, my children, my first grandchild (due in December 2015), my future great-grandchild (2040?), my great-great-grandchild (2065?), my great-great-great-grandchild (2090?), my great-great-great-great-grandchild (2115?). That’s TEN generations in all!

Can you imagine? When Jesus said “this generation will not pass away” that could have meant the same thing as if he had said “TEN generations will not pass away.”

Legitimate?

Of course, there are also ways to evaluate this from a Biblical perspective. We can discuss, for example:

(Deuteronomy 23:2) “No illegitimate son may come into the congregation of Jehovah. Even to the tenth generation, none of his descendants may come into the congregation of Jehovah.”

If 1 can equal 10, perhaps this actually meant 100 generations!

Poor bastards!

11

Max Larson's archived experience on tv-jw-org includes an AWKWARD statement

by Gilgamesh in

this isn't about anything sordid (or morbid, or reported that knorr did).. it's just that i found an odd-sounding statement in the archived interview that appeared at about 31m20s in the december 2014 monthly tv.jw.org broadcast (or at 4m35s in the stand-alone larson interview also on tv.jw.org).

it seems to reveal an attitude that you'd think would be obsolete about the power of the anointed.

in the attached image, as captioned by tv-jw-org, he said: "every overseer was anointed .

Gilgamesh

When I watched the video it was hard to believe that anyone would call JFR, "Pappy." But Knorr called him "Pappy." I remember at Bethel, you sometimes heard Knorr referred to as "Pappy Knorr." I can't see how anyone would give either of them such a nickname based on their natural personalities. Seems like a nickname they wanted to be called.

Gilgamesh

Posts by Gilgamesh

Who ‘wondered admiringly’ at the League of Nations to fulfill Revelation 17:8?

Generation (X′+X″) <= 1914+λ[A′]-α[A′]+λ[A″]-α[A″]-x

You’ll get your due in 2072!

2132: It’s around the corner, too!

Legitimate?