Oubliette

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Posts by Oubliette

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  372

  On respect for the belief of others. Sorry for the long post

  by StarTrekAngel in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i am inclined to start this thread in response to some comments made in other threads.

  i have been coming around these forum for quite some time now so whatever you find in here is not just related to something someone may have said this week.

  it can go months back as well.. i have seen many who claim to respect the belief of others but when it comes down to applying it into practice, things take a whole different tune.

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  Oubliette

  Truthseeker, thanks for sharing that, proving that some of our greatest influences can come from unexpected places.

  Could you elaborate on how he influenced you? I'd love to hear more.
  
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  372

  On respect for the belief of others. Sorry for the long post

  by StarTrekAngel in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i am inclined to start this thread in response to some comments made in other threads.

  i have been coming around these forum for quite some time now so whatever you find in here is not just related to something someone may have said this week.

  it can go months back as well.. i have seen many who claim to respect the belief of others but when it comes down to applying it into practice, things take a whole different tune.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  Oubliette

  It's a common marketing maxim that "perception is reality." It doesn't take a great deal of thought to realize the unreality of that statement. And yet in a very real way it is true for nearly all of us.

  As Einstein opined, "“Reality is merely an illusion, albeit a very persistent one.”

  In the article, "6 Steps To Untangle Reality And Perception," Licensed Clinical Social Worker, Jack Grabon, explains: "Perception is the lens through which we view reality: ourselves, others and the world around us. However, the lens often gets confused with what is being viewed through it." We all filter and then interpret all the data that comes into our brain: first, through our various senses input devices each with their own particular limitations, and then secondly through our mind with its own cognitive strengths and limitations whether physical or due to our education and experience or lack thereof. And of course we cannot ignore the multiple biases and prejudices which we no doubt have, many of which we are sadly unaware.

  Last year I spent a unit with one of my science classes focusing on the physical limitations of our senses. We explored and measured what we can and cannot perceive. We also learned about how these senses lie to us; not only do we not see a great deal of what exists to be seen, but our brains lie to us and "see things" that are not there. (An example of this is how our brain fills in the "blind spot" in each of our eyes by "guessing" what is there.)

  After doing this for most of our senses, my students were beginning to wonder if they could trust anything. This is where a scientific approach to understanding reality comes to our rescue, at least partially.

  By becoming aware of what we do and can know, by understanding that we have preconceptions, misconceptions and biases that influence our thinking, we begin to realize the importance of having evidence that is objective and verifiable in creating our understanding of ourselves and the world in which we live.

  It then follows that we should begin to seek ways to independently verify what we know and what we think we know. This leads to a more rational worldview, one free of religious beliefs, superstitions and myths.
  

  In my class I had several young JWs. Two of them told me after they graduated that those lectures helped them to have confidence in their questions and doubts about their religion of origin and to become independent thinkers.
  
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  372

  On respect for the belief of others. Sorry for the long post

  by StarTrekAngel in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i am inclined to start this thread in response to some comments made in other threads.

  i have been coming around these forum for quite some time now so whatever you find in here is not just related to something someone may have said this week.

  it can go months back as well.. i have seen many who claim to respect the belief of others but when it comes down to applying it into practice, things take a whole different tune.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  Oubliette

  Xanthippe: Oubliette they are not suicidal. ... What I'm saying is it's a long journey, people find their own way. We don't have to save them.

  Right. I did not intend that expression to be taken literally. Perhaps my metaphor was overly dramatic.

  I totally agree with you about it being a journey and it having to take its own course and its own time. Not only do we not have to save them, ultimately we cannot. Everyone must make this journey for themselves, although we are not alone.

  My comments of course were in the context of discussions here on the forum or perhaps similar ones in our personal life.

  When we are dialoguing with someone and they are only reacting/responding emotionally, what are some useful strategies to redirect their thinking, feeling and emotions.

  I am focusing on the short-term, immediate interaction although with a long-term view in mind.

  
  

  
  

  
  
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  44

  We talk a lot about conditional friends on here

  by cappytan in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  so, when people post about being shunned by their friends, i've heard several posters say things like, "their friendship is conditional.

  real friendships aren't conditional.".

  i'm sorry, but that just isn't really true.. if you and i were friends, there are conditions.

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  Oubliette

  Simon: A real friend would at least hear you out. So many of us discovered our "friends" wouldn't even do that.

  Yes, and that helps define the difference between real friends and the artificial ones inside of a religious cult.

  Worse than that of course is that those same false beliefs can sever familial relationships. It would be bad enough if the beliefs were true, but as they are not it is tragic.
  
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  44

  We talk a lot about conditional friends on here

  by cappytan in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  so, when people post about being shunned by their friends, i've heard several posters say things like, "their friendship is conditional.

  real friendships aren't conditional.".

  i'm sorry, but that just isn't really true.. if you and i were friends, there are conditions.

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  Oubliette

  LTPF, the scenario you describe is important because you draw attention to the difference between an individual ending a relationship for reasons known to them and institutionalized shunning. A very important distinction to make.
  
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  372

  On respect for the belief of others. Sorry for the long post

  by StarTrekAngel in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i am inclined to start this thread in response to some comments made in other threads.

  i have been coming around these forum for quite some time now so whatever you find in here is not just related to something someone may have said this week.

  it can go months back as well.. i have seen many who claim to respect the belief of others but when it comes down to applying it into practice, things take a whole different tune.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Oubliette

  Xanthippe: When they join a thread on here sometimes they've just left or are trying to leave a cult that has twisted their mind in knots since babyhood.

  This is a very important observation and a good reminder to keep in mind.

  And while it might explain such behavior, it certainly does not justify it.

  So with this in mind, what strategies can we use to "talk them down off the ledge" of their cult-indoctrination and the consequences of waking up and realizing they've been duped, (a process most, if not all, of us here had to go through).

  For me, I appreciated when other senior posters were calm and discussed only the issues, never making the discussion personal. Some of them, for example Cofty, were quite brutal with their directness in forcing me to confront the inconsistencies in my beliefs. And yet because it was always only about the beliefs and never directed at me as a person I was able to work through it.

  Some people just can't seem to make that intellectual and emotional separation, even though they are waking up or have woken up to the fact that they are in a cult.

  On the other hand, there are some long-time posters here for which the above explanation doesn't hold. They've been out long enough to have worked through those issues and haven't or won't. They seem to come here just to pick a fight. But we can't do anything about that, can we?

  You can't win 'em all!
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  44

  We talk a lot about conditional friends on here

  by cappytan in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  so, when people post about being shunned by their friends, i've heard several posters say things like, "their friendship is conditional.

  real friendships aren't conditional.".

  i'm sorry, but that just isn't really true.. if you and i were friends, there are conditions.

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  Oubliette

  Cappy, as always you bring up some really good points.

  I agree that relationships are conditional. They just are.

  You didn't make the distinction though between the terms "unconditional friendship" and "unconditional love."

  Not intending to derail the thread, just add to it, but those are not the same thing.

  A parent could, for example, love a wayward child and even end the relationship but still have love for the child.

  Clearly such a thing is unlikely to exist between friends of any kind.
  
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  372

  On respect for the belief of others. Sorry for the long post

  by StarTrekAngel in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i am inclined to start this thread in response to some comments made in other threads.

  i have been coming around these forum for quite some time now so whatever you find in here is not just related to something someone may have said this week.

  it can go months back as well.. i have seen many who claim to respect the belief of others but when it comes down to applying it into practice, things take a whole different tune.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
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  Oubliette

  That's calling it like it is Cofty. But that is what happens here, quite often as you clearly know.
  
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  32

  Invisible Rulership - one of the dumbest things I ever believed in

  by Black Man in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  having now been out of the cult for a few years, it really shocks me about some of the nonsense i used to believe in.

  like for instance, christ ruling in the midst of his enemies, but doing so invisibly.. let's let that one sink in for a minute.

  you've supposedly got a king who is ruling for a kingdom, but it is an invisible rule.

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  Oubliette

  It's just a religious twist on the invisible clothes on the very visible ruler:

  
  

  The emperor is naked, ... and he's fat and ugly too!
• 
  372

  On respect for the belief of others. Sorry for the long post

  by StarTrekAngel in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i am inclined to start this thread in response to some comments made in other threads.

  i have been coming around these forum for quite some time now so whatever you find in here is not just related to something someone may have said this week.

  it can go months back as well.. i have seen many who claim to respect the belief of others but when it comes down to applying it into practice, things take a whole different tune.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Oubliette

  Xanthippe: I think it's because a person's identity, their belief about the purpose of life and their view on life after death are usually tied up with their religion.

  Good point.

  So because they take it personally, they respond that way even though the instigating comments were directed at beliefs, beliefs which the person making the original comments might not even know the other person holds.