On respect for the belief of others. Sorry for the long post

by StarTrekAngel 372 Replies latest watchtower bible

  • StarTrekAngel
    StarTrekAngel

    I am inclined to start this thread in response to some comments made in other threads. I have been coming around these forum for quite some time now so whatever you find in here is not just related to something someone may have said this week. It can go months back as well.


    I have seen many who claim to respect the belief of others but when it comes down to applying it into practice, things take a whole different tune. The bellow is strictly in a web forum environment. Things may change when taken to another context but I believe in general respect is always called for.


    So before I go on, let us define what I personally mean by “respect for the belief of others”. I feel compelled to do so because if not, many would come to read “respect” in their own way. Many claim to be able to look into issues objectively and without bias when they don’t realize their bias walks right in front of them. They sure blame everyone else of it but they fail to see their own. With that said, let me clarify that I am just as guilty as charged. The difference is that I know I am or I know I could be. And this is why I try my best to post in a manner that says “this is my personal stance or experience” and not “I have analyzed the situation with 100% objectiveness and you are wrong”. I am willing to hear or listen to the experience of others, whether I think they are ridiculous or not. For example, even though I don’t believe in conspiracy theories (i.e. Illuminati or whatever they are called), I could carry a conversation (and I have done it) about the subject with someone who does, in a manner that sure tells them I am skeptic but I don’t make them feel uncomfortable. Another example. I have a co-worker (one of my subordinates actually) who is paranoid about a potential chemical attack in the area. He bought what he claims to be an Israeli military grade gas mask. He keeps it in his desk but for the most part no one even remembers it is there. He doesn’t bother anyone. He also bought one for his wife. She a 3rd grade teacher. When the H1N1 flu outbreak, he insisted that his wife wore the mask in class. The school administration denied her request citing “mass paranoia”. She got mad and so did he. They attempted to convince the school administration but it backfired on them.


    What I think respect for the belief of others is…


    1. Listening to their experience or position with an open mind, expecting to hear or find something new. Entertaining the possibility, not that they might be right and your belief wrong, but rather the possibility that you may be misinterpreting them. May be they are trying to say one thing but you end up understanding something completely different.


    2) Allowing someone to discuss their ideas with fellow believers. Whether they believe in God or that the earth is flat. If you have a question for them, then ask. If the answer does not fit your realm of reasoning or education, then good for you. If it does, well you just found a wonderful new group of friends.


    3) Allowing someone to offer more detail when their opinion goes misunderstood. Not clinging to the first three words of someone’s statement. You never know what was in their mind or what drove them to their choice of words. Maybe it was a fear to offend someone or maybe they felt the majority was not going to understand if he or she used the terms that they are accustomed to use.


    What I think respect for the belief of others is not…


    4)It does not mean we need to move to a “everyone is right” philosophy. I am a big fan of Dilbert. I call it the modern corporate bible so I read it every day. I can find answers to the grievances I encounter almost daily. Scott Adams published a book with a recollection of comics called “When did ignorance become a point of view”. I totally agree with it and it may seem to contradict what I am trying to express here. It doesn’t. Not if you can put things in the right context and realize that Dilbert is set in a corporate environment, where your personal belief does not change the laws of physics or the principles of accounting for example. In a business environment most things are measurable and somewhat predictable. What the above quote is mostly referring to, is that the political correctness in such objective environment is moving towards allowing someone opinion (or belief) to take the force of strategic planning even when it doesn’t make sense on the face of mathematics or sound and proven business models. When it comes down to a religious forum things change. We are talking about more subjective matters and things that may be more dear to us than our way of earning a living. It is for this very reason that there are laws against religious discrimination at work. Last time I checked, this forum was not exclusively oriented towards atheists.

    5) It does not mean you should allow others to push their belief on you. By far this seems to be the hardest to keep at bay when people discuss God. It doesn’t matter how they ask, people tend to immediately conclude that if you use the word “God” you are immediately being preached to. We are talking about mere expression of opinion and belief. If someone attempts to correct you based on their own belief, then by all means they have violated the respect for your belief. In this case I think we have a choice of walking away or engage the person in a discussion. This in particular doesn’t even have to stop in religion. Last week I was at an airport trying to board my flight. I was with another 5 people and my company had booked us in a budget airline (those that charge you for every smile they direct at you). When I got to the counter, I realized they would charge for printing the boarding passes. I could download their app and check in online and save $30. I said, nevermind, just charge me. My phone was dead and I knew I was not going to be flying this airline again anytime soon. Nevertheless, the airline employee started not only insisting that I download the app to save money, but also calculated that I had 3 hrs until my flight and I had time to charge my phone (where I would then be able to check in for free). I try to tell her twice, in a calm manner that I did not care for the charge, I just wanted to be on my way. Off course she proceeded to explain how much money I would save. I thanked her dearly for her concern twice, but she insisted. At that point I had it. What happened next is too long to add to this post but let just say that I need to become a citizen soon. One of these days I am going to loose it, be put on a no fly list and not be able to get my citizenship. Unfortunately us hispanics don’t have it that easy. We have to be twice as well behaved as others would. I don’t like having this kinds of situations but it shows you that if you ever understood that respecting the belief of others ever implied letting other push their agenda on you, you understood wrong.


    6) It does not mean we need to live in a utopian fantasy land where everything is sunshine and paradise. By all means people who believe the above is possible can continue to imagine so or they may be better suited to go back to the Watchtower. Funny as it has it, as I was writing this, I had to get up and talk to one of my co-workers. After he was done, he started talking about some show he just watched. The shows seems to duel on the idea that the moon may be hollow. He proceeded to explain the reasons. We discussed how is it those guys find evidence for such claims. It sounded mostly like baloney to me. But this guy did not ask me what I thought and neither he was looking to engage me on a debate of whether this could be truth or not. Neither did he push me to watch the show. I told him that the show sounded interesting at face value but nothing more. We decided to go to lunch then and talked about something else. Simple as that.


    7) It does not mean we would allow lies that hurt people to be spread around. Although this could be mixed in with number 5. Posting an idea on a forum can certainly be the beginning of something new. Allowing it to spread may help it grow. When things like these grow out into a mainstream movements, then that is when it begins to cause damage. However, as a free society, we can not afford to stump on someone else’s freedom of speech just because we don’t agree with their view. Allowing them to talk and allowing them to harm people are not always the same thing. Decades ago science thought that being gay was a mental illness and it was medically treated as such. I am sure that there are things nowadays which we are utterly convinced of, which we may come to laugh at in its due time. That is the way science is. With this I don’t want to start the argument of whether science will ever discover evidence of God. No. What I sure want to make a point across is that we simply don’t put people down just because of what they think or feel, no matter how ignorant we think they are. So now in the 21st century, we may have concluded that being gay was not a mental illness after all, but I think that even more important than that, was the fact the we understood that no matter what is the source of homosexuality, we are not entitled to hurt others, even if we are utterly convinced that in doing so we will cure them of some perceived sickness or ignorance.



    Nevertheless, and just to keep in line with what I am trying to say. This is my personal stance. Personal only. It doesn’t mean you have to agree with me or feel like I am trying to lecture anyone. I learned a lot of this from my boss over the years. He is this type of person that can truly read a person or message with objectiveness. Never lets his emotions take over. And I mean never. I and any one of the 200 people that work with him has never seen him break a sweat over something, no matter how terrible. No matter how disastrous the situation is or how many internet routers are on fire or how many millions of dollars are at stake. I am nowhere near that but I certainly have learn a lot from him. I have never seen another individual act like this. That is not me. I think I’ve got better but still happens. Off course, we are talking business. Like I said before things are meant to stay objective. I don’t know how he is in his personal life. Provided that we do touch more subjective issues here, I can understand is more difficult to keep emotions out.



    I am pretty sure I am going to take a lot of flack for this. Good chance to practice keeping a straight face like my boss does. I don’t mind, go for it if you want. If anything, the only point I hope you can take, is that just because someone may understand different, no matter how much empirical evidence you may have, there is still place for respect of the experience, opinions and belief of others.


    It's Friday and it is almost time to quit. Just a couple of hours more. I don’t come in here on weekends. I don’t want to spook family members still in. So if i don’t reply until next week, know the reason. Either Way, I learn as well that if you can’t make someone understand what you mean in two to three replies, then there is no point to argue with someone who set out to misunderstand.


    Have a great weekend.
  • Lostwun
    Lostwun
    Nice post!
  • sparrowdown
    sparrowdown
    Thanks STA, for your thoughtful consideration.
  • Dunedain
    Dunedain

    And your point is ? . . . . . . .

    Ha Ha HA, just kidding, i couldnt help it, lol.

  • bohm
    bohm
    +1. Thanks for taking your type to type out this nice post!
  • Oubliette
    Oubliette

    STA, thank you for your sincere and thoughtful post.

    I've been thinking about this myself.

    It seems that many here feel that you can't disagree without it becoming a personal issue. I have enjoyed many excellent discussions on this forum where people are free to express their differing viewpoints with respect and are respected in return.

    I have also experienced the exact opposite. Unfortunately there are quite a few members of this forum that respond to any questioning, disagreement or criticism of WHAT they post with PERSONAL attacks of the person that dared express a differing point of view. Just the other day I was blasted by one poster simply because I found his OP unclear and I asked for clarification.

    Some of the attacks I've seen here are quite vicious in nature. I can't help but make the comparison to the kind of toxic, unhealthy, abusive relationships that I deliberately left behind when I severed ties with certain family members (not JWs) and also left this religion.

    We don't need that here!

    Great OP. Thanks for starting this thread,

    Oubliette

  • cofty
    cofty

    This originated with at post where you lectured me for the following offense.

    I don't care how empirical evidence you can gather. Even when you have a solid foundation for your claim, it doesn't entitle you to convince others either.

    Let me say first that I agree with much of what you wrote in your OP. There are two things that I strongly disagree with.

    Firstly you have used lots of examples from "normal life" to comment on how you think others should behave on this forum.

    Outside this religious discussion forum I rarely debate anybody about anything. If I find that somebody constantly says things that I disagree with I just don't seek out their company. Life is happier by avoiding confrontation as far as practical. When people in "real life" mention their religious superstitions or belief in conspiracies or astrology or any other sort of woo I smile politely and change the subject.

    However this is a religious discussion forum. It's a place where people who were victims of a cult come to share experience, knowledge, support and advice. This is not normal life.

    I frequently engage in threads where people are simply looking for comfort and support. My advice to those who are leaving the cult and who are seeking answers about life's big questions is always the same. Forget about it for the next few years while you rebuild your life.

    Then there are other threads that are specifically about the big questions.

    Secondly I think you are conflating robust challenges to somebody's beliefs with personal attacks. Personally I make a point of respecting people I disagree with but bad ideas are fair game. This is an important distinction. It is a common myth that beliefs can or should be protected under the label "religious" and therefore be immune from criticism. If it was a private one-to-one conversation then I would probably make a minumum effort to challenge superstitions and delusions. But a public forum is different.

    Religious claims are assertions about reality and ought to be scrutinised mercilessly like any other. Questions like the existence of god, the inspiration of the bible, the evolution of life, the character of Jesus and many more questions are not simply matters of opinion. There are many facts that are germane to these questions and nobody should apologise for bringing them to the discussion. If the other person is not interested in the facts there will be many others reading the thread who are interested.

    Beliefs do NOT deserve respect. That is a ridiculous suggestion. If a belief is wrong how can anybody respect error? If it is true it does not require our consent or approval.

    People deserve respect. It is a mark of respect to assume that others care about truth.


  • ThinkerBelle
    ThinkerBelle
    Great post STA! You can disagree with someone without being a jerk about it. I'm always hesitant to post on other threads sometimes because of some of the comments.
  • SafeAtHome
    SafeAtHome
    STA Number 4 reminds me of the saying "You are entitled to your own opinion but not your own facts". As you stated, your personal opinion does not change the laws of physics, science, etc. A person is entitled to believe what they want but not to impose that belief on others or interfere with another persons freedom of beliefs or choices as granted by the laws of the land.
  • Village Idiot
    Village Idiot

    STA. As for respect I can only respect people not beliefs. Beliefs are abstractions, people are concrete.

    On a side note - sorry if this is off topic but I couldn't resist. - concerning the man who wanted his wife to wear an Israeli gas mask, as an owner of such a mask (and a Russian version too) I could tell you that it would be suffocating to wear that damn thing for 15 minutes let alone a whole workday.

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