Posts by Torn

11

Enigma Listeners?

by santacruzchick in

does anyone listen to enigma?

i recently started listening to a few of the songs, i love the song gravity of love , all of the songs are so relaxing

Torn

I'm pretty sure on the inside cover of one of Enigma's albums there is an image of The Tetragammaton somewhere. Rather spooky kinda. Check it out.

103

Keeping it in perspective

by Torn in

i've just joined up to silentlambs.

basically i still consider myself a jw, although i'm no longer active.

i do frequent the odd sunday meeting tho, as i still consider 95% of it to be the truth.

A very good question Ozzie, one I and other JW'S I know ponder on. My answer to this one Ozzie, is that ultimately for a person to be a 'true' christian in the sense that they are worshipping God 'in spirit and truth", they cannot be believing in false doctrines such as the trinity, hellfire, immortality of the soul etc. Now I know the first reaction to this is "that is just typical JW judgementalism, arrogance, extremism, and bigotry". HOWEVER, it is the reason WHY a christian is believing those things that I believe matter a lot more to God that JW's as an organisation admit. What I mean by that is false religion has MISLED the MAJORITY of mankind. The devil has created counterfeit christianity and teachings to conceal the truth and hide it. He has 'blinded the minds of the unbelievers'. Now this is something that MOST sincere individual christians are of course not to be blamed for and, personally, I do not feel will be 'mercilessly massacred' by Jesus at Armageddon for. After all, who did Jesus condemn...it was not the common people, who he had immense pity and compassion for, and viewed as sheep tossed about and skinned by the sanctimonious religious leaders. No, it was the religious leaders of his time that he condemned and said. There is not one account of jesus condemning the average poor downtrodden citizen. Even those living in immoral lifestyles (woman at the well and the woman who poured oil on his feet and washed them with her tears) he felt love for and wanted to help. He saw their hearts. I feel it is the same today: The majority of 'christians' are good hearted people who Jehovah and Jesus love (john 3:16), however, it is the reprehensible proud and fleecing leaders of these mammoth false religious edifices who will be held accountable at the ruination of Babylon The Great. Having said that tho, Revelation does say one must eventually flee from them if they do not want to be 'sharers in their sins'. So if any who deliberately and knowingly still cling to these institutions when eventually God delivers his justice to them for so grossly misrepresenting him, having had a full and thorough witness about the truth, and the issue of universal sovereignty having become absolutely clear to them (which is presently absolutely isn't to the majority of mankind), if they still cling, they will go down with it. There's no getting around that Jesus said only a minority will be saved. The road is narrow and cramped; few are the ones finding it.

The WBTS meantime dare not voice such speculations and theories because they have no right to, as the bible does not reveal in complete detail how God is to deal with the masses who are 'blinded' simply 'misled', through no real intentional wickedness on their part. They can only preach what the bible does say about what one needs to do to be saved, and there are those with especially receptive heart conditions who can see this straight away..others can't because they are more engulfed and entangled in the morass of disinformation and falsehoods out there. How things pan out when this system and false religion goes down is yet to be revealed.

Torn

Edited by - Torn on 11 November 2002 4:56:53

103

Keeping it in perspective

by Torn in

i've just joined up to silentlambs.

basically i still consider myself a jw, although i'm no longer active.

i do frequent the odd sunday meeting tho, as i still consider 95% of it to be the truth.

Torn

Dear Ozziepost. Perhaps I should have said that I believe in all the core doctrines JW's teach EXCEPT that I am simply NO LONGER CONVINCED that Jesus become King in heaven in 1914 and the Gentile times ended then and some kind of parousia started then, that is all. I don't say I completely oppose this as completely false, and neither do I say it is absolutely correct. I am just no longer convinced and I see some strange inconsistencies with it. However, taking away purely the 586 v 607 thing, there is still some rather strong scriptural argumentation that 1914 could have some significance, however to say Christ was enthroned then and most of the 144,000 were resurrected at that time, I am very doubtful of. This may seem wishy washy and 'sitting on the fence' but so be it. It's the present position I stand in.

Every other CORE doctrine taught by JW's I have no hesitation in categorically saying I accept and believe in. Everyone on this website can flame me if they like, or the owners even remove me from it, but I must be honest with what I personally know and believe to be the truth.

Yes, I agree that if the 1914 thing doesn't stand, that means the so called 'faithful and discreet' slave class have a huge problem problem on their hands. They would lose much 'authority' as you put it. I don't see necessarily that their authority would completely collapse however. The anointed are not just the GB, and ultimately their authority is the Bible, Jesus Christ, and Jehovah (not necessarily in that order hehe). Jesus is the head of the Christian Congregation, not some archaic chronological error and date setting. But that is not my problem; it is the problem for those writing and upholding teachings at the very head of the organisation. If they are deliberately perpetuating a falsehood in this regard, Jehovah, Jesus and the angels will have them sifted and weeded out all in their good time. Even if the whole Governing Body is sacked, so be it. We know that whole bodies of elders have been unhesitantly sacked because of not handling judicial cases and things correctly. If such a dramatic thing as most or all of the current GB were dumped and replaced, maybe re paedophile scandals or deliberating perpetuating false chronology, then no doubt many many JW'S may, in fact quite likely would, stumble and leave, and those at the top who have stumbled them will have a very terrible accounting to Jehovah for what they've done. Still, sincere honesthearted truthseekers will pick up and carry on. I believe such a major shake-up could indeed happen to JW's if the 'end' they all expect doesn't come by 1914 or shortly thereafter, although the way they have 'hedged' and couched their 'new light' on the 'This Generation' understanding now makes it hard to pin anything on them. They're trying to cover all bases now. The years could just drift on for decades with more children being born, growing up, and getting baptised ignorant of all the scandals of the past.

However, as I think I mentioned in a previous post, it could well be that JW's as they presently are constitute a nucleas of a refined organisation God will mould and cause to rise up in the future, whether it be 5 years from now, or 50? Time will tell.

I know my views are very unorthodox and certainly I could easily be disfellowshipped if I aired such postulations and theories amongst JW's. As I've said before, I still believe and will always believe there is more good, much more doctrinal truth than falsehood, to be found in JW's than the bad. The angels are sifting all the time. Jesus is holding the 'seven congregations' in his hand and he is judging them and refineung them. I just say, let's just back off and wait and see, rather than condemning and attacking.

Cheers - Torn

103

Keeping it in perspective

by Torn in

i've just joined up to silentlambs.

basically i still consider myself a jw, although i'm no longer active.

i do frequent the odd sunday meeting tho, as i still consider 95% of it to be the truth.

Torn

Hi Ozziepost. No I'm not just quoting from WBTS sources. In fact, as an example, I have a clipping from The Dominion Post (Wellington, NZ's, main daily newspaper) right here that I recently saw and cut out. It's captioned "Church of England in meltdown, says report". Inter alis, it says the thousands of C of E churches and dioceses will face oblivion by 2030, and urgent reform is urged from within it. It says "at the present rate of decline adult attendance in 2030 will be 500,000, less than two-thirds of those going to church now and less than half what is was in 1980. Child attendance will have fallen to almost nothing". It goes on to talk about a large 'demographic time bomb' in the making. "Nearly one in four children disappeared from church figures between 1990 and 2000 and for every 100 children in 1930 there are now nine", it says. "Decline has been a constant of the postwar years but accelerated in the 1990's. Baptisms fell by 13% in the 1980's and by 24% in the 1990's. Weddings fell by 11% in the 1980's and by 46% in the 1990s. The Church marries half thte number it did 10 years ago". And so on.

Certainly the mainstream churches are 'drying up'. Smaller apostolic, pentecostal, and other 'born again' type denominations have risen in numbers yes, but I strongly doubt the flow leaving the mainstream churches equates exactly the same to those coming into to the more charismatic ones.

Any research you have studied is very welcome. Please send it thru to [email protected].

Remember tho, the old saying that one can use statistics to tell just about any story one wants.

As for JW'S numbers drying up, well, yes the percentage of new ones is deceasing slowly but surely proportionately to the total publishers, no denying that.

PS- I made a mistake saying I had just joined Silentlambs. I meant this website. I was getting websites mixed up.

Torn

103

Keeping it in perspective

by Torn in

i've just joined up to silentlambs.

basically i still consider myself a jw, although i'm no longer active.

i do frequent the odd sunday meeting tho, as i still consider 95% of it to be the truth.

Torn

Thanks Mulan. I hear what you're getting at.

Could you please tell me precisely what other religions do not believe in the trinity and use God's name, etc, as you state. I would very much appreciate this.

I think it is wishful thinking to suggest that the fundamental core doctrines of JW'S, ie, that Jesus and the Holy Spirit are not part of a Trinitarian Godhead, that the human soul is certainly not immortal, and that the hope for future life is the resurrection, God's permission of wickedness is because of the issue of universal sovereignty, that a small group go to heaven for a special purpose, and the rest of obedient mankind's destiny is to live eternally on a paradise earth, will change. They are like the trunk and main thick branchs of a tree. The smaller doctrines JW'S have all stem from these fundamental core truths and some of these smaller branches of truth are not so clear and obvious in the bible. They may be adjusted from time to time yes, but those core stable doctrines as I've listed are immutable truths as revealed in the holy bible (any bible) and can anyone honestly see JW's would backtrack on those. I really really doubt it Mulan.

I have honestly personally known many many JW'S who display all the fruitages of the spirit and are nothing but loving kind compassionate giving people. There is much good individual fruitage to be seen in this religion. Sadly, yes, there are also pretenders, 'clashing symbols' and harsh ones as well. They will individually have to account for God in the full sweetness of time. But why lump them all in the same catergory Mulan. I can't fathom this mentally that if ALL JW'S are not cherry perfect role model loving christians then none are and the whole religion is corrupt. I'm sorry but I also certainly feel that is a powerful and modern day fulfillment of real christian brotherhood that JW's almost down to an individual refused to take up arms and kill their fellow man in all wars of the last and this century. They would rather give up their own life, lay it down, as Christ commanded true christians would, than take the life of another. How many other other religious groups did that? So it's pretty unfair to say JW'S show no christian fruitage.

Torn

Edited by - Torn on 11 November 2002 4:43:39

103

Keeping it in perspective

by Torn in

i've just joined up to silentlambs.

basically i still consider myself a jw, although i'm no longer active.

i do frequent the odd sunday meeting tho, as i still consider 95% of it to be the truth.

Torn

Dear Mum -thank you for your message. Maybe u are right that I am at some early stage of leaving this religion even more..time will tell.

I have to say however - I find it very strange that you say you also believe in 95% of JW's teachings, but can at the same time believe in 95% of the teachings of other religions. As the bulk of JW's teachings differ quite dramatically from the vast bulk of christendom's teachings, how could that be? Seems contradictory. Please enlighten me.

Further, could you mind being more specific and enumerating for me exactly what beliefs of JW's you still believe in, and what beliefs of others you do also. I'm curious.

Edited by - Torn on 11 November 2002 5:0:36

103

Keeping it in perspective

by Torn in

i've just joined up to silentlambs.

basically i still consider myself a jw, although i'm no longer active.

i do frequent the odd sunday meeting tho, as i still consider 95% of it to be the truth.

Torn

Dear Shakita. Thanks for your personal message to me.

I have examined heard of Mr Jonson's theories. I havn't read his books, but from articles and research on freeminds and some other ex-JW sites.

To be candid, I do have very big concerns with the teaching re 1914. From my research there is indeed something screwy with the the Society's teachings surrounding this date. It is certainly troubling that all the independent, secular, and religous research points to 587ce as the time of Jerusalem's fall and not 607ce. Troubles over this is predominantly why I feel I cannot go from door to door at this point in my life.

Re Olof Jonsson's theories that there is nothing special about the last century and that other eras have been just as bad - there are many theories on Jesus words in Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21. Debates haved raged for decades and even centuries for and against amillenniasm, premillenniasm, postmillenniamism. Ideas promulgating that all of Jesus prophecies in these chapters were fulfilled in the first century are popular, plus the idea that it is about half and half, and others that it's all to be fulfilled in our time. All theories are very seductive and can be argued semantically quite strongly for and against. One could easily get bogged down and just throw ones hands up in the air and decide 'who can figure this all out - it's all open to interpretation - I give up on the lot'. For me the crux of the matter is that Jesus will definitely 'return' to take his Kingly rule over this earth. Whether you feel he's coming back down to this planet or staying in heaven, that's also a matter for one's own interpretation. But he IS returning, and I do not believe he has left us totally in the dark about the 'season' when that will be. Having examined the arguments, I'm convinced that many, but not all, of the things Jesus foretold in the said gospel accounts have fulfillments both in his own time re the fall of Jerusalem in 70AD, and for his future followers to know when they are in that 'season'. We know that many many prophecies in the bible have double fulfillments, typical and antitypical.

Combined with this is the chronology of the bible, ie, the fact that we have gone past 6000 years since Adam was created, God's great jubilee plan timetable, the exciting prophecies in Revelation which were recorded after the destruction of Jerusalem, the duration of the Abrahamic Covenant (terminating at Christ's death) followed by the Covenant for a Kingdom which is of the same duration as the Abrahamic Covenant (see John Denton's amazing research on this). There are just too many lines of evidence pointing to these times we are living in as special. The popularity of evolution, the shocking drop in morals in our times, the erosion of the family, the acceptance of homosexuality, the drying up of Babylon The Great's waters, ie, the increasing fall-off in those attending the mainstream churches, the fact that we are in the time period of the feet of the great image witnessed by the prophet Daniel, ie, the Anglo-American world power (no more world powers to come), the fact we are in the time period of the 8th King foretold in Revelation. I would be skating on extremely thin ice if I got lulled into thinking that maybe there is no imminent return of christ and maybe it won't even come in my lifetime. I choose to keep faith in Jesus return in our time and stay awake. Even if it doesn't come in my lifetime, at least I was faithful and can look forward to everlasting life by means of a resurrection. The prize is still the same whether it comes in 12 months, or 50 years.

22

my story

by nelly1 in

.

well i tried to do this yest and i lost all of it, :( lot of typing lost, but oh well, i would welcome feedback from anyone who has been through similar things to me, i got the truth 13 yrs ago, and i never felt like i was wanted not really, i was with a man and had 3 kids with him when i came into contact with the witnesses, but he was a pedophile so i found out and had been doing things to our kids since they were born, i ditched him, he walked from 2 high court trials, and no one in my cong cared abt me, they didnt want to know.

said it was in my head, anyway, i struggled for years i hated going to conventions and being ignored by my own cong, it was just me and my daughter on our own all the time trying to serve jehovah, i didnt feel happy but i just wanted to please my god and i just tried my best, i always felt left out and i was never asked to do demos at the hall, its like they were just putting up with me, i was always pulled in for stupid things like the messages i put on my answerphone cuz some stupid stuck up old sister didnt like it.

Torn

Dear Nelly

I was very saddened reading your story. I know what you mean about uncaring and unloving elders...there are a lot of elders who are merely 'clashing symbols, (1 Cor 13:1 + 2), and and who are only really interested in discharging their duties on the platform, and as you say, once they have their toe off the platform, the love it gone. The problem is the elders are so bogged down with meetings meetings meetings, preparing preparing, organising, administering, etc etc their little prosaic dull sunday school parts on the platform, that they have no time or energy or inclination to show any real love or concern for the flock. The organisation desperately needs to drop a meeting or two, and instead get elders shepherding and trying to do a lot more show genuine love and compassion for struggling weaker ones, not condemning them and brow-beating them into moulding into all these rigid policies and rules.

Personally, I was privately approved twice for immorality. I took my medicine and tried hard to get back on track, and did. But I received practically no shepherding, encouragement or love from the elders when I felt I really needed this. I had to ASK for sheperding visits, and they were always prosaic and uninspiring, not heartfelt or searching (except for one elder at a judicial committte I have to admit who really did probe and asked very perceptive questions, compassionately trying to find out who I was and understand where I was coming from). I then relapsed and got disfellowshipped. I do not blame them for doing that to me. I came back in after 9 months, but mainly because it was breaking my heart not being able to have communion with my family. I have not been on FS for the last 6 months, and only attend the odd sunday meeting now and then, mainly to get the latest mags, haha. I have suffered too from the lack of caring and personal interest from 'clashing symbol's' who are meant to be our shepherds, but instead only really want the glory of men that comes from giving flash little talks from the platform.

Still, not all elders are like this, by no means. I have met some very lovely and caring elders who are really there for solo mums and one's 'on the fringes' in the congregation, ones who really do care about people, but they seem to be getting less and less. I'm not making excuses for those that are not showing love, but it's just sad you have been a victim of some harsh ones and were in what appears a very cold congregation. I would guess you were in a city congregation. Country ones are usual much better.

I hope u will not get too bitter though. I can understand you have every right to be. There still are a lot of loving and caring JW's. Try to always remember the good things you have learned from the organisation and not be put off too much by any 'wolves in sheeps clothing' who will have to account to Jehovah for the way they have treated, you, including your cruel new husband. In time Jehovah will offer you healing, one way or the other. Keep praying to him.

Agape

Torn

103

Keeping it in perspective

by Torn in

i've just joined up to silentlambs.

basically i still consider myself a jw, although i'm no longer active.

i do frequent the odd sunday meeting tho, as i still consider 95% of it to be the truth.

Torn

Thanks everyone for your replies and the encouragement. A pretty mixed bag really. I look forward to checking into the site fairly regularly and seeing everyone's views.

Neyank said 'where is the proof'. I feel there is plenty for reserving one's judgement that God is not using this organisation, warts and all. First of all, I have studied all the trinitarian arguments inside out and still cannot see how anyone can honestly believe in the Trinity. Plus, no other religion teaches, from my own research (JW and all the counterarguments) the truth about the condition of the dead, ie, the mortality of the soul, except perhaps the Christadelphians, and the resultant collapse of the hellfire argument. No other religion teaches that there are 2 destinies for mankind. Christadelphians also have hit on the truth about the restoration of a God's original purpose for this earth, ie, living forever on earth will be mankinds restored destiny, however, they go to the other extreme and deny there is any heavenly hope whatsoever. This seems a clear scriptural teaching for me, ie, restoration of the earth to it's original condition and purpose and a restoration to perfection for the majority of mankind on earth. Don't worry, I've examined all the arguments against this, but still I'm convinced JW's have this right. Also, I cannot find any other religion that has hit onto the truth about what the Kingdom of God really is, ie, a Governmental arrangement that will rule from the earth. It's so nauseating to see other religious groups trying to rely on how Jesus supposedly saying "The Kingdom is within you" (a shonky translation of what Jesus originally meant and said") to support their view that the Kingdom is somehow just some ideal within us to be attained to. Most other religions give too much emphasis on Jesus and worship him as the Creator. No one seems to have a middle ground except JW's. Some feel they do not give Jesus enough emphasis and the 'mother' Organisation too much. I can understand this and agree to some extent, but why go to the other extreme?

Also, Jesus' last words to his disciples were Acts 1:8 '...the holy spirit will arrive upon you...and you will be witnesses of me to the most distant parts of the earth". There is no way I can believe that the worldwide preaching work undertaken by the Bible Students and JW's over the last century or more could be accomplished without God's spirit operating on them, despite the odd teaching being and chronological expectations being faulty here and there. It is the fundamental doctrines they have right. What other group has bothered to get out of their comfort zone tried to help people learn about the bible? It's easy to be cynical and say 'they just do that to brainwash and recruit', but I honestly feel the majority are utterly sincere in wanting people out there to learn about something better for mankind as taught in the scriptures than what evolution and the mainstream churches offer.

As for Neyank's suggestion that the fact JW's do not perform miracles somehow means that God is not using them, well, one could really say it is the opposite, ie, that those groups that are performing supernatural things like tongues, faith healing, etc are giving evidence that they cannot possibly be used by God, because the Apostle Paul warned about these sorts of things happening in the end times 2 Thess 2: 9-12. On the other hand Jesus said in Matt :28, 19 and 20 that he would 'be with' christians who preach and make disciples.

Still, there is no doubt about it that the Organisation is too controlling and dictates how we should worship God, ie, must go to all the meetings, answer up at least once, go on FS at least once a month etc. There is quite simply far to much emphais on PERFORMING and WORKS, and not enough emphasis on showing love, compassion, and nonjudgementalism to EVERYONE in the congregation, not just those who are putting on a good show and doing all the works every good little JW is expected to perform. Even the way the preaching is done is so regulated and magazine focused that JW' have almost become 'peddlars of the word' (2 Cor 2:17) instead of sincere, heartfelt, and skillful teachers of it. Many are so unwittingly obsessed with getting their hours and offering lame magazine presentations that they have lost their ability to offer a true sermon and try sincerely to reach people with the Good news.

Valis - your picture of the ring through the nipple reveals a lot about you and the path you're presently on. Are you even still a Christian I wonder?

103

Keeping it in perspective

by Torn in

i've just joined up to silentlambs.

basically i still consider myself a jw, although i'm no longer active.

i do frequent the odd sunday meeting tho, as i still consider 95% of it to be the truth.

Torn

Hi. I've just joined up to Silentlambs

Basically I still consider myself a JW, although I'm no longer active. I do frequent the odd sunday meeting tho, as I still consider 95% of it to be the truth. I have however in the last few years had a lot of trouble with the Society's chronology, teaching regarding the Gentile times, and the order of events in these last days (which I believe we are in). It was the 'this generation' so called new light in 1994 which knocked the wind out of my sails, and since then I have been doing a lot of research into bible chronology, and scouring for independent interpretations of eschalotological related matters. I strongly doubt the gentile times started in 607 BCE, more likely 525BCE when Babylon was destroyed. John Denton's amazing research into bible chronology (try searching under bible chronlogy or email [email protected]) and his views as expressed on his website especially rocked me and opened my mind up to other possibilities and interpretations I had never even dreamed of before. I do believe Armageddon is definitely coming, but I think it could still easily be decades away. As a result I feel the Organisation puts far too much emphasis on Armageddon's 'nearness' and this has become a controlling mechanism, instead of more emphasis being put on christian love and qualities to those on the inside, and out. It creates a distorted attitude amongst many JW's, who feel nothing really matters as long as they keep clocking up points in heaven by going to meetings, on FS etc, cause the end is 'just around the corner'. There should be more emphasis on building christian qualities and displaying christian fruitage for our WHOLE life, not just because we think the big prize of the new system is 'so close', like it has been for decades already. I also feel the Society have 'double vision' regarding the Christ's return, ie, they say he returned in 1914 invisibly and sat on a throne then in heaven, but he is also to 'return' in another sense at the outbreak of Armageddon and sit on another throne, ie, a 'judgement throne'. I see this as fudging and trying to put old wine into new wineskins doctrinally about teachings concerning Christ's return that the Society just can't let go of. I could go into this in a lot more detail but won't here and now.

I am still a JW in my heart, unlike many I see on this list who are quite vitriolic, maybe for good personal reason I can understand with all the emotional and psychological damage inflicted with poorly handled judicial matters, ostracism, judgementalism, and paedofilia victims, however I try to keep things in perspective. Most on this list it seems are so convinced the Organisation doesn't have God's backing and is even 'evil'. For myself, I am not going to throw the baby out with the water. In a nutshell, I think all of the Society's main doctrines are spot on (trinity, hellfire, immortal soul, paradise earth, small number taken to heaven, etc), however, this religion is made up of imperfect individuals and even a sprinkling of downright 'unloving' and harsh elders, pretenders, but to my mind that doesn't mean God is not using this Organisation. I guess I could expect a flaming from a lot of listees for this, but it's a personal choice of balance for me at this point in my life and understanding, which I ask others to respect.

I feel there are a lot of changes ahead for the "Organisation" in the next few years, and I'm waiting for those, especially regarding chronological matters and the current understanding regarding the timing of Christ's return. In the meantime I choose not to be too critical of the Society but just take a neutral position and wait to see how things develop.