Posts by joe_from

13

Old WatchTower Magazines

by ClassAvenger in

i was wondering where i can get some watchtower magazines, the really old ones where they teach about all those prophecies and stuff.

i was thinking of collecting a few to show them to my jw friend, but i have heard they are hard to find.

i have also heard about some magazines being in cd-roms, but i don't think a jw would accept that, i think they would want harder evidence.

joe_from_kokomo

Hey there: a bunch of my best stuff is still available for free (or a small charge) here at the HERALD MAGAZINE Web site. Check it out:

http://www.heraldmag.org/olb/Russell.htm

23

607 BC

by minstrel in

could someone explain why this date is incorrect, i had always been told that this date for babylon's conquest of israel was widely accepted by historians etc.

(hence it was also critical in calculating 1914.

)

Not all JWs are the same, folks, nor are all of them devoid of an IQ, as many a posting here will atest to. As for me and my family, we were shocked to learn that 607 BCE was a false date, an outright lie. IT WAS THE STRAW THAT BROKE THE CAMEL'S BACK FOR US.

And Simon is correct that the book, "The Gentile Times Reconsidered" is an excellent review of the "other side of the story". It is available on Amazon.com, too.

Finally, keep in mind that both volumes of the Isaiah book mention 607 BCE and 1914 in every single damned chapter-some of you who have not attended a book study in a year or two may not be aware of this-so it is relevant and important to any JW with half-a-brain. And I argue that there are more of them than some of you suggest.

Some will always be swayed by the smooth sayings of the FDS, but if the truth about 607 and 1914 were to come to light, it would have a devastating effect on the WTS.

This is ultimately why Carl Olaf Jonsson was disfellowshipped, was it not? At least he alleges this in his GTR book that we are all recommending as required reading on this topic.

Just my two cents...

4

Paying interest on a Kingdom Hall loan, is it interest or mortgage ???

by run dont walk in

i have read several threads where the general concession is, a new kingdom hall being built that needs a loan is usually 3 % .

let's say this is true (for the sake of arguement).

now i just renewed my mortgage at 5 % interest, sounds great doesn't it, but the first 5 years 50% of your money is going to interest and 50 % to principal, because the bank makes you pay the interest first.

joe_from_kokomo

A better question to ask here is this: HOW CAN THE SOCIETY JUSTIFY CHARGING INTEREST (USURY) FROM THEIR OWN BROTHERS?" This violates the guidelines in the Hebrew Scriptures! It is Hypocrisy of the highest order. THINK ABOUT IT. They are charging the brothers (and sisters) interest to build a Kingdom Hall to further their own interests.

OK, OK, I took Economic Analysis, and Micro/MacroEconomics in college, and I am well-aware of the "time value" of money, which is around 3% per annum. But, the Bible does not make this distinction. It DOES NOT say that it is OK to charge a small amount of usury from your brothers to account for the time value of money- it says IT IS NOT OK TO CHARGE ANY USURY from your brothers. Here are the scriptures to back it up from the NWT. This first one is Lev. 25:35-37 (bolding/emphasis mine):

35 "‘And in case your brother grows poor and so he is financially weak alongside you, you must also sustain him. As an alien resident and a settler, he must keep alive with you. 36 Do not take interest and usury from him, but you must be in fear of your God; and your brother must keep alive with you. 37 You must not give him your money on interest, and you must not give your food out on usury.

But, that's not all. Here is yet another reference, to be sure, from NEH 5:6,7:

6 Now I became very angry as soon as I heard their outcry and these words. 7 So my heart took consideration within me, and I began finding fault with the nobles and the deputy rulers, and went on to say to them: "Usury is what YOU are exacting, each one from his own brother."

So, it really bothers my Bible-trained conscience that they not only permit this, but actually encourage it.

For example, At our former KH, over $180,000 was raised to purchase property for a new Kingdom Hall. Several of the loans from the brothers were at interest rates of up to 5%. And, the elders thought this was just peachy keen. They admired those who offered the loans (admittedly a good thing for these ones to do), and had no problems with the interest charges (in spite of Bible guidelines to the contrary). We also offered them a large loan at 0.0% interest (because of these Bible guidelines listed above, and numerous WT pubs that mention them).

Now, here's the rub: when it came to paying back the loans to the brothers, guess who's loans got paid back first? Yes, you guessed it - the brothers who charged 5% interest for their loans were paid back in a regular and timely manner. Other loans were put on the back burner, especially if they were interest free loans. The elders instead begged for extension after extension.

Our family's loan was not paid back at all. Months went by and after 4 (that's right 4) meetings with the P.O. on this topic, requesting that the payment terms of the original note be followed, I actually had to write to the Society to get our loan repaid. Thankfully, the BORG in Brooklyn took my side and instructed the local elders to immediately repay our now-extended and very-overdue 0.0% loan.

Such rank hypocrisy shows that these folks truly DO NOT have "love among themselves"...

6

WT submits its written evidence to UK Parliment:

by Brummie in

since this document is now in public domain i cant see anything wrong with posting it here:

house of lords session 2002-03. select committee on religious offences in england and wales.

volume iii - written evidence.

joe_from_kokomo

Brummie: I love your "fuzzy kitty logic", to wit:

With reference to paragraph 2.1, a question of clarification is respectfully asked. There seems to be an inconsistency in the fact that Jehovah's Witnesses (Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society of Britain) testify that they call the Police when there is a disturbance to their meetings and yet where "actual violence" is inflicted upon young children there have been reports that they have conducted their own criminal investigations. How can this apparent anomaly be resolved?

This is right on target!

8

New light on the Flood!

by drwtsn32 in

ok, so it's not from the wts but it's funny.. http://www.planetx2003.com.

supposedly planet x is due to pass by earth very soon with catastrophic results.

this happens every 3,000 years or so.

joe_from_kokomo

His math for Bible prophecy is worse than the Watchtower's. He states that:

Geological research does find reason to believe that there was a vast, sudden and deadly flood around 5600 B.C. (3600 X2), close enough to the possible time of Noah to fascinate Bible literalists...

Well, what fascinates me is this guy's math skills. First, 3600 X 2 = 7200, not 5600, as everyone knows. Even if you assume that he means to subtract the 2003 years of the AD period, or all years since 1 BC, you still end up with: 7200 - 2003 = 5197 BC. Not 5600BC!

If this orbit of Planet X is so damn precise that they can pinpoint exactly the year 2003, and it has an elliptical orbit of exactly 3600 years, then their Noah's flood in 5600 BC is absolute hogwash based on the math alone...

After all, the Bible Code II book says the world will end in 2006... That's what I'm betting on.

6

Twisted Scriptures of the Watchtower - Part 2

by joe_from_kokomo in

friends: .

this one may not qualify as a "fully-twisted" scripture, in the sense that so many others are more twisted and more misused, and more transliterated.

but, i did run across a scripture that is incorrectly translated in the new world translation i felt it needs to be brought to light.

joe_from_kokomo

Friends:

This one may not qualify as a "fully-twisted" scripture, in the sense that so many others are more twisted and more misused, and more transliterated. But, I did run across a scripture that is incorrectly translated in the New World Translation I felt it needs to be brought to light. The scripture in question is Phillipians 1:21, which reads in the NWT as follows:

Phil 1:21: For in my case to live is Christ, and to die, gain.

To read this scripture is to be immediately confused, and even a contextual reading of surrounding scriptures will not clear up the meaning. Why? The answer is explained by the scholar, Hugh J. Schonfield in his book, "The Original New Testament" pg. xxx. Note what the author states:

"For over fifteen hundred years the New Testament documents were hand-written by scribes, and mistakes could thus be made by carelessness and inattentiveness on the party of the copyists. One such slip has already been noted where christos has been read instead of chrestos at Phil 1:21. Paul had not said "For me to live is Christ, and to die is gain". What he had said was "It is useful (chrestos) for me to live, and and advantage to die...and I hardly know which to choose. I am in a quandry between the two.""

The Watchtower, however, seems to have made no effort at carefulness or attentiveness in their publication of the New World Translation by its anonymous committee of Franz. Nor have they made any effort to update their translation and correct such obvious errors, as the current version of the NWT still employs the errant translation at Phil 1:21. If you were confused when you read it, now you know why!

The Watchtower even tries to make sense out of their own erroneous translation of Phil 1:21, as this excerpt of the Watchtower from March 1, 1995 illustrates so well:

At Philippians 1:21, 23, Paul says: "In my case to live is Christ, and to die, gain. I am under pressure from these two things; but what I do desire is the releasing and the being with Christ, for this, to be sure, is far better." Does Paul here refer to an "intermediate state"? Some think so. However, Paul says that he was put under pressure by two possibilities—life or death. "But what I do desire," he added, mentioning a third possibility, "is the releasing and the being with Christ." A "releasing" to be with Christ immediately after death? Well, as already seen, Paul believed that faithful anointed Christians would be resurrected during the presence of Christ. Therefore, he must have had in mind the events of that period.

To be fair, many other modern translations also got it wrong, including the Amplified New Testament, the Emphatic Diaglott, the NIV, American Standard Version, New Living Translation, New American Standard and the New King James. In fact, very few Bibles have rendered this scripture correctly.

But, the Watchtower Society claims that their Bible is the most modern and up-to-date translation, one that was based on the earliest versions of various manuscripts, yet it still is in error. And their publications then expound on and seek to explain error with more error...

Perhaps this is a minor mistranslation in the grand scheme of things, but I thought those of you with an interest in detailed scriptural matters would appreciate this information.

1

Exposing WTBTS Lies & Errors - Part 9

by AGuest in

exposing watchtower lies & errors

part ix

christ speaks to the congregations

joe_from_kokomo

Aguest:

Such an excellent posting. Very well put and very helpful and enlightening. I particularly liked the part you wrote that said:

it is all those who are exercise faith in... or are PERSUADED by... that One, such that they trust and have confidence in him so that they listen to, yield to, comply with and therefore OBEY him.

You put that so well. The Watchtower Society wears out that phrase "exercise faith" and they are about the only ones that use that definition for the Greek words employed in the original Greek text, but you also go on to use the parallel meanings for these same words, namely "believe into, rely on, cling to, adhere to". This is what the original Greek words really mean, and the phrase "exercise faith" has instead been employed by the WTS too often and has become either near-meaningless, or has come to mean, in the minds of most Witnesses, something akin to door-to-door service. That is not what these passages that utilize these Greek words mean.

In fact, the direct translation in the Kingdom Interlinear Translation (under the two Greek words at John 3:16) states correctly "believing into". Of course, "believing into" cannot be used as easily to justify a works-based faith, so the substitute phrase "exercise faith" has been transliterated in this scripture, and many others, for that purpose.

I also liked your points about how our Lord Jesus has been "lost in the wash" so to speak, by the WTS in its programs and publications. Jesus is rarely mentioned. Everything is about Jehovah, and the focus is solely on Jehovah, as if Jesus' role were not important!

When I still served as an MS, I can remember a prayer I gave that used Jesus' name three times in it (along with Jehovah's of course, lest I be thrown out of the kingdom hall on my ear). After that, I was never again asked to do prayer in front of the congregation. (Which suited me fine actually, I never liked to give prayers before large groups, I was always in fear of losing track of my thoughts in the process. To me, prayer is a hugely private matter.)

The last straw for us was the last Memorial, with its class distinctions so pronounced, and as you put it, we of the rank and file are denied the benefit of Jesus blood and body during this important annual cerimony. It left us very angry at the now-obvious injustice we were previously blind to.

While on earth, Jesus taught the importance of having no class distinctions, but the Pharisees and Sadducees of the Watchtower have resurrected the Law, and even added to it. They have reinstituted class systems, with their anointed class, Bethel class, "those taking the lead class", and the other sheep class. There are so many classes that most can't keep them straight!

Worse than that, as your posting aptly brings out, they have taken away the benefit of Jesus' ransom sacrifice from those of their flock and are misdirecting them away from their mediator, Jesus the Christ.

Thanks again for this most marvelous posting.

92

The Society's response to my letter regarding my dad's suicide

by cruzanheart in

well, i finally got a response to my letter, and it only took them almost three months!

models of efficiency, they are.

actually, big tex and i think they had to run this through the legal department.

joe_from_kokomo

Nina & BigTex:

I reread your letter from the original posting. It choked me up the 1st time I read it, and it did once again this time. Then I read the Society's hollow, empty, uncaring, unfeeling reply. It is clear that they are practicing blame-shifting guilt-trap tactics in their response to you... I could pick it out so clearly.

I particularly appreciated this comment from your original letter:

You have behaved exactly like the Pharisees whom Jesus condemned. You will have to answer to Jehovah for your actions. (Matt.25:41-46) I have nothing but contempt and disgust for you.

This is so well put. It was my impression from a first read of their reply that they treated your father, and now you for bringing an injustice to light, as "Amharets". Like dirt. This is just what they did.

Having been "in" for 6 years and now recently "out", I can readily recall how wrong this whole disfellowshipping process is. You are treated with contempt, unable to speak at meetings, OR BE SPOKEN TO, and then, after much mental anquish, after much humility and shame, and after being treated by practically everyone in the congregation with disgust for your deeds - deeds that are supposed to remain confidential, but which leak out thru the elder's wives network in the ladies room- are indelibly etched in the minds of every gossipy judgemental person there, and even those who are not so much that way, but end up that way out of sheer conformist behavior.

Then, the disfellowshipped one is "welcomed back" and everythings supposed to be A-OK. Just fine. I'm OK, you're OK. But, it's not. The elder's wives network has already condemned you forever. I know one elder's wife who would tell every one about DSFings that went back 20 years... never forgotten, always at the tip of her tongue to bring forth as dirty laundry gossip when that person's name came up in conversation. Yes, we don't believe in Hell, but for some we create it here on Earth.

My first congregation had a P.O. that sounds like yours. A nasty, sour, uncaring miserable autocrat. A dismal excuse of a man. We left that congregation because of him and his attitude that permeated the whole congregation. Really, a congregation of JWs is a top-down societal microcosm, and the P.O.'s personality determines for the most part if it is a loving congregation, or a selfish and dismal one. It sounds like yours was the later, unfortunately for your father.

We were luckier, I guess, as the 2nd congregation was full of loving elders that DID go out of their way to take care of most of the elderly and infirm ones- in fact, there were quite a few in the congregation, and they got regular visits and care when they were sick in the nursing homes. One pioneer sister coordinated meal deliveries between many sisters to make the load light. It was a warm and loving congregation. Unfortunately for us, the lies of the Society and its cultic influence became too much to bear, but it was not the folks in the congregation...

OK, I rambled a bit there. I have one last point, though. We lost someone in our company where I work last summer - he committed suicide. Everyone liked him, too, and all were shocked. All of us felt like we did not do enough for this person. That somehow each one of us should have known, should have done more, should have gotten to know this person better, should have stopped by the house, should have done something... anything. We still feel that loss, and I am talking about a coworker. So, I cannot begin to know the sadness you must feel for your father. It must be a 1000 fold greater...

Last but not least, I would like to apologize for the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society and for the anonymous clerk in the Legal Department that wrote that thoughtless reply. "They know not what they do...", Jesus said. It rings true again. These people will stop at nothing to maintain unity. The Truth is not a factor. Justice is lost. Self-idolatry of the organization is all that matters...

Pity them. Work to forgive them if you can. Pray for strength in the days ahead... Pray for them when you can forgive them some day. (I am still working on this myself, so I know it may take a while.)

May God comfort you and your family in the days ahead.

==========================================

Note to Sword of Jah: You have your freedom of speech, but seem to have lost touch with your "Bible-trained conscience". Your comments remind me of the remarks of 13 year-olds with no maturity. Why do you want to stumble others?? And, if you are so keen on the Society, why are you on this BB in the 1st place? You can be DF'd for this at your local congregation if you get caught. Run on home now...

31

Should a Christian Fight in a war, or join the military service?

by l3gi0n in

ecclesiastes 3:8

: there is a time for peace and a time for war.

there are some arguments as to weather a christian would fight in military service, or would remain peaceful to all men, up until death.

joe_from_kokomo

Legion;

Or whatever your name is... it is for certain that you did not proof this, nor did you spell-check it either, and the spelling stumbles me a bit, but I get the sense of your inquiry. You bring up many good questions, and the Insight references are interesting.

I am not sure what the real question is here, though. I am not sure what you are asking really, but I wore out before I got to the end of your compilation. I would, however, like to bring up some oft-repeated points about the hypocrisy of the WT Society on all matters military service related:

1. The WTS owns stock in the Rand Corporation (stock symbol: REGI) which makes ceramic engines for smart bombs, and has numerous other mostly military applications. This is hypocrisy, as working for a military manufacturer would be a disfellowshipping offense, to the best of my knowledge. The WTS should disfellowship itself then. Go to www.10Kwizard.com and search under Watchtower and see the public records on this for yourself.

2. The WTS disfellowshipped numerous members in the past decades for choosing alternative service options rather than military service. Ray Franz has documented this quite well in his two books and it is a disgusting example of hypocrisy that the rules in Mexico were OK'd, when others in other countries were not allowed to do ANY form of alternative service. Their position on alternative service is nothing short of fanatical.

Perhaps you know all this already- I do not know-but after learning this myself, I was most disgusted, and no longer consider anything the WTS puts in print on military service for Christians to be valid. They must first learn how to practice what they preach...

2

Need your help: How to convince a doubting JW field service isn't required?

by joe_from_kokomo in

friends: i need your help.

my family and i left the wts one month ago and during a recent discussion with my sister-in-law, who is still in the borg, it seems she also has doubts, too.

but, one thing in particular seems to keep her in the organization: she believes that by being a witness she is fulfilling the commandment at matthew 28:19 about "go therefore and make disciples [of people] of all the nations and baptize them in the name of..." (well, you know the rest by heart.

joe_from_kokomo

Friends: I need your help. My family and I left the WTS one month ago and during a recent discussion with my sister-in-law, who is still in the Borg, it seems she also has doubts, too.

But, one thing in particular seems to keep her in the organization: She believes that by being a Witness she is fulfilling the commandment at Matthew 28:19 about "Go therefore and make disciples [of people] of all the nations and baptize them in the name of..." (Well, you know the rest by heart.) A similar twisted scripture employed by the Org is the one from James about "...faith without works is dead".

Now, here's where I could use some help. How do I convince someone who is in the Borg that they are not bound by Matthew 28:19 (or the accompanying scripture in James) to have to do door-to-door service or other forms of witnessing for the rest of their lives? The only argument that comes to mind is the one about salvation by grace, but you may have others, or some of you may have studied this in greater detail, having made your own defense on these points.

In my mind, I can see that these scriptures applied to Christ's few disciples in the 1st century- without which Christianity would not have flourished- but I do not see them as relevant today. If I can prove beyond a doubt to my sis-in-law that these no longer apply to her, this may convince her to step out of what we now know to be the Watchtower Society Cult. It is the only thing that holds her in now.

Any advice would be greatly appreciated...

joe_from_kokomo

Posts by joe_from_kokomo