Posts by herk

37

John 1:1 and God being "with" God.

by hooberus in

the watchtower says regarding john 1:1: "someone who is "with" another person cannot also be that other person" .

this argument is used by them againist the trinity.

while trinitarians believe that there is only one god, they also believe that there are distinct persons within the one god and that each person is god.

herk

hooberus,

I was never a JW. I do want JWs to know the real Jesus Christ of the scriptures. Though many former JWs here no longer reapect the Bible there are some here who do, and I hope that these revaluate who Jesus Christ is.

It is quite evident that you never were a JW. Many of the arguments you use to defend the Trinity doctrine have been discussed among JWs for many years. Your arguments are the same ones they encounter year after year as they talk with people at their homes. The absurdity and unscripturalness of the doctrine is a basic reason many JWs remain in their organization. It is, in fact, one of the principal doctrines that have turned people away from Protestant and Catholic churches to become JWs.

I believe JWs are wrong about the origin and some other aspects of the biblical Jesus. But I believe trinitarians are even further from the truth about who Jesus is. Neither JWs nor trinitarians "know the real Jesus Christ of the scriptures." It is only from the words of the Savior and his immediate followers that anyone can determine which is the correct identification of Jesus among all the competing ideas. It is quite easy to know how the disciples viewed their master during his lifetime on earth. We can also trace their reactions toward him immediately after his death and resurrection. The problem that JWs and trinitarians have is that they place their focus upon a comparatively few verses that seem to support their views while they ignore the overwhelming testimony of the bulk of both the Old and New Testaments.

herk

37

John 1:1 and God being "with" God.

by hooberus in

the watchtower says regarding john 1:1: "someone who is "with" another person cannot also be that other person" .

this argument is used by them againist the trinity.

while trinitarians believe that there is only one god, they also believe that there are distinct persons within the one god and that each person is god.

herk

hooberus,

herk, I am curiuos as to your beliefs, on the Father and Christ.

I believe the Bible is very clear about the distinction between the Father and Christ. However, I am also firmly convinced that it is God who reveals to persons what that distinction is. When Peter identified Jesus as "the Christ, the Son of the Living God," Jesus responded by telling Peter that "this was not revealed to you by man, but by my Father in heaven." (Matt. 16:15-17) The Trinity is not a revelation from God. It is a concept that was invented and publicized by men. It is therefore very distant from the understanding that Peter expressed concerning Jesus' relationship with God. The only way that trinitarians will ever receive a correct understanding about the Father and Christ is by paying attention to what the Bible actually says instead of to what men and institutions claim that it says. herk

37

John 1:1 and God being "with" God.

by hooberus in

the watchtower says regarding john 1:1: "someone who is "with" another person cannot also be that other person" .

this argument is used by them againist the trinity.

while trinitarians believe that there is only one god, they also believe that there are distinct persons within the one god and that each person is god.

herk

Dawn,

Rev 1:8 God/Father is calling himself Alpha and Omega, yet Rev 1:17 Jesus is clearly speaking (as it says I was dead and behold am alive), and he calls himself the first and the last (alpha and omega).

The words in Rev. 1:17 are not Alpha and Omega, but Protos and Eschatos.

Rev 22:12 says "Behold, I am coming soon" (who is coming again? Jesus of course) - and then calls himself the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last. So it appears in Revelation that both God and Jesus refer to themselves as the Alpha and the Omega.

Rev. 22:12 is quoting God, not Jesus. The Good News Bible inserts the name Jesus, but this is different from the original Greek and unlike other translations. Jesus is never called the Alpha and the Omega. Even if he were, why should that lead us to conclude that he is God? God, Jesus, angels and men are addressed in the Bible as "Lord," but that does not make them equal. Similarly, the term "apostle" is applied to Jesus and a select group of his closest followers, but that does not mean everyone called an apostle shares equal status with Jesus. (Matt. 10:1-3; Heb. 3:1)

John 14:8 tells a story of the last supper, Philip says to Jesus "Lord, show us the Father and that will be enough" - Jesus' response "Don't you know me, Philip, even after I have been among you such a long time?"

The fact of the matter is that Jesus is the Son of God, not God the Father. So, when looking at Jesus, Philip literally saw God's Son, not God Himself. However, Jesus reflects his Father perfectly. He is "the image of the invisible God." (Col. 1:15) He is "the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature." (Heb. 1:3) Note, please, that the text does not say that he "is" the invisible God. No, he is the "image" of his Father. He is "the exact representation," but not God Himself. Similarly, Adam was created in God's "image and likeness," but Adam was not God. (Gen. 1:26) We ourselves are "predestined to conform to the image of His Son," but that will not make us equal to God's Son any more than his being in God's image makes him equal to God. (Rom. 8:29)

herk

64

Did Jesus pray to himself ?

by hooberus in

while trinitarians believe that the father, son, and the holy spirit, are god, they also believe that they are distinct persons within the one god.

thus they are able to speak to one another.

so jesus (one person) speaking to the father (another person) in prayer is not a problem.

herk

hooberus,

The diagram that herk pasted is inaccurate, in that it presents the Trinity as being composed of four persons instead of three. The diagram presents the two natures of Christ as different persons when in reality Christ is one person with two natures (not two different persons).

There is nothing inaccurate about my diagram. Trinitarians believe that Jesus prayed to himself and to the other two members of the Trinity. The other two members are described by trinitarians as Persons within the Trinity. According to them, Jesus also is such a Person within the Trinity. If he prayed as a human person to his corresponding divine Person, the picture is of one person praying to another Person. Prayer is communication from a human person to a divine Person, not a communication within the mind or "natures" of one person. This is one of the big problems trinitarians present that hinders acceptance of their theory. They have their own vocabulary which is very different from the vocabulary of standard dictionaries. There is no such thing as "prayer" from one nature to another nature. A nature does not pray, but persons do. Thus it is inaccurate to say that Christ's human nature prayed to his divine nature. But it is perfectly correct to say that Christ as a human person prayed to a divine Person. Trinitarians misunderstand the meaning of "nature." Christ is not the Almighty God simply because of his "divine nature." Otherwise, faithful Christians will also share in the Godhead since that is the nature they are promised: "He has granted to us His precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4) herk

37

John 1:1 and God being "with" God.

by hooberus in

the watchtower says regarding john 1:1: "someone who is "with" another person cannot also be that other person" .

this argument is used by them againist the trinity.

while trinitarians believe that there is only one god, they also believe that there are distinct persons within the one god and that each person is god.

herk

azaria,

I understand that some Rabbis before, and during the time of Jesus did believe God as being "three in one." That is why many Jews at that time were able to accept Jesus as the Son of God.

There isn't even one historian in all the world who will back you up with a statement like the above. This farfetched idea illustrates to what extent trinitarians are willing even to re-write history in order to promote their theory.

Because we can?t understand it doesn?t make it untrue.

No one is saying it's untrue because no one can understand it. It's untrue because it isn't taught in the Bible at all. Why believe in something that has no clear-cut statement in the Bible that spells it out clearly enough for a child to understand?

If one truly wants the truth about the trinity you can find it.

People can find practically anything in the Bible if they go there with pre-conceived notions. When we rid our minds of what men have led us to believe and then let the Bible speak for itself, it doesn't shout out to us that God is a Trinity. Instead, God tells us tens of thousands of times that he is an "I" or "me" (singular person), not a "we" or an "us" (plural persons). Other thousands of times he is called "he" and "him" (singular person), not "they" or "them" (plural persons).

Maybe a silly example would be: Father is the Architect, the Son is the Actual Builder (one company, two different jobs)

It may disappoint you to learn that your illustration is the very one JWs use to teach their belief that God designed the universe but Jesus (as the Word) did the actual work of creation.

herk

37

John 1:1 and God being "with" God.

by hooberus in

the watchtower says regarding john 1:1: "someone who is "with" another person cannot also be that other person" .

this argument is used by them againist the trinity.

while trinitarians believe that there is only one god, they also believe that there are distinct persons within the one god and that each person is god.

herk

37

John 1:1 and God being "with" God.

by hooberus in

the watchtower says regarding john 1:1: "someone who is "with" another person cannot also be that other person" .

this argument is used by them againist the trinity.

while trinitarians believe that there is only one god, they also believe that there are distinct persons within the one god and that each person is god.

herk

It's positively amazing that trinitarians, unable to add one plus one, pride themselves on deciphering from the Bible a theory so complicated that even their best scholars can't explain it in reasonable language. Just as they expect us to accept BY FAITH that one plus one plus one equals one, they want us to shove reason aside and accept BY FAITH a doctrine not taught in the Bible but concocted many, many years after the Bible was completed.

herk

37

John 1:1 and God being "with" God.

by hooberus in

the watchtower says regarding john 1:1: "someone who is "with" another person cannot also be that other person" .

this argument is used by them againist the trinity.

while trinitarians believe that there is only one god, they also believe that there are distinct persons within the one god and that each person is god.

herk

64

Did Jesus pray to himself ?

by hooberus in

while trinitarians believe that the father, son, and the holy spirit, are god, they also believe that they are distinct persons within the one god.

thus they are able to speak to one another.

so jesus (one person) speaking to the father (another person) in prayer is not a problem.

herk

30

Money and career tips for EX-JWs....

by logansrun in

jw
friends

it's a safe bet that if you were raised as a jw, or if you came into it early in life, you have some strange ideas about money and finances.

the wt for decades made even minimal post-secondary education utterly taboo and only recently has capitulated that "some" extra schooling might be neccessary (associate degrees good, bachelors degrees bad).

the average youth raised a jw has little understanding of investment due to the apocalyptic worldview of the organization (why invest in a dying system when the big "a" is right around the corner?).

herk

The real panic doesn't set in 'till mid-50's or so, and it's not pretty. It's really sad. That's not where you want to be.

Amen to that. I left JWs at age 58 after spending 40 years in full-time service. When I left, I was deep in debt, and now at age 68 I'm still working at tough jobs that sometimes amount to hard labour in order to pay my bills. It's no picnic, but I'm grateful I still have good health and a strong back and a fairly good mind. When I left, I knew others in full-time service who wanted to leave too, but they considered the consequences of starting life all over in old age with hardly a penny to your name. Still, despite the hardships, I consider the freedom from the WT to be well worth it.

herk

PS: If anybody has some ideas on how an old man can make good money, let me know. I've got experience working in an office as a general clerk. I've got some experience in building websites. I've been a city tour guide, and I don't do too bad at public speaking. After I left JWs, I even served as a pastor for two years at a church that was desperate for a preacher. I had to move on once they found somebody who had gone to their denominational seminary. I've also done plenty of manual labour, such as I'm doing now for a shop that makes paint shop filters. I don't mind working hard, and it doesn't matter what shift. Right now I'm getting about $8.00 (US) an hour, but I could use more. I'm not begging, but I tho't there'd be no harm in mentioning this in a thread like this one.