Posts by herk

37

John 1:1 and God being "with" God.

by hooberus in

the watchtower says regarding john 1:1: "someone who is "with" another person cannot also be that other person" .

this argument is used by them againist the trinity.

while trinitarians believe that there is only one god, they also believe that there are distinct persons within the one god and that each person is god.

Did Jesus pray to himself ?

by hooberus in

while trinitarians believe that the father, son, and the holy spirit, are god, they also believe that they are distinct persons within the one god.

thus they are able to speak to one another.

so jesus (one person) speaking to the father (another person) in prayer is not a problem.

Did Jesus pray to himself ?

by hooberus in

while trinitarians believe that the father, son, and the holy spirit, are god, they also believe that they are distinct persons within the one god.

thus they are able to speak to one another.

so jesus (one person) speaking to the father (another person) in prayer is not a problem.

herk

hooberus,

in order to claim that Trinitarians believE that Jesus prayed to himself, you need to show that Trinitarians believe that Hebrews 5:7 is referring to all the persons of the Trinity rather than the specific person of the Father.

Apparently you don't see my point. Hebrews 5:7 says Jesus prayed to "the One" who was able to help him. Trinitarians claim God is one Almighty God composed of three Persons. All three are equal and should have been able to help Jesus. Thus "the One" who was able to help him was actually three Persons, namely, God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. If only God the Father was able to help him, that would indicate clearly that God the Son and God the Holy Spirit are not equal to him.

herk

64

Did Jesus pray to himself ?

by hooberus in

while trinitarians believe that the father, son, and the holy spirit, are god, they also believe that they are distinct persons within the one god.

thus they are able to speak to one another.

so jesus (one person) speaking to the father (another person) in prayer is not a problem.

herk

hooberus,

Trinitarians use Isaiah 9:6 for a reference that Jesus Christ is "Mighty God."

The following is typical of the confusion among trinitarians (clergy and laity) regarding the "Father" of Isaiah 9:6:

Christian Journey is a pro-Trinity church organization in Pensacola, Florida. In their Bible study course on "Undersanding the Trinity," they state: "Isaiah 9:6 tells us that the Father is eternal. ... All 3 in the Trinity have always existed and always will exist."

The Travis Avenue Baptist Church in Fort Worth, Texas, in a published sermon on Isaiah 9:6, 7, states: "v.6 - 'Everlasting Father ...' This points to the providential care of the Father over our lives. Now you may have had an earthly father who didn't care for your needs, but not the Everlasting Heavenly Father. ... Christ is the 'everlasting Father.' You know our earthly fathers will not always be with us. Sometimes they may even fail us. But not our heavenly, everlasting Father, whom we see in the face of the Lord Jesus Christ."

Trinitarians usually deny that Jesus is the Father. However, any reference to Isaiah 9:6 as proof that Jesus is God and that he is everlasting (eternal) requires accepting that verse as proof that Jesus is the Father. But trinitarians want to have their cake and eat it too. Arbitrarily, with no reasonable explanation, they claim Jesus is God because he is called "mighty God" while they deny he is the Father even though he is clearly called "everlasting Father." Devout Jews have traditionally applied this prophecy to Hezekiah who was the agent of God while sitting upon the throne of the Lord in Jerusalem. A grander fulfillment is found in Jesus the Messiah. However, the Jews never read into the prophecy that Hezekiah was Almighty God or, as trinitarians do, that the Messiah is Almighty God.

herk

64

Did Jesus pray to himself ?

by hooberus in

while trinitarians believe that the father, son, and the holy spirit, are god, they also believe that they are distinct persons within the one god.

thus they are able to speak to one another.

so jesus (one person) speaking to the father (another person) in prayer is not a problem.

herk

64

Did Jesus pray to himself ?

by hooberus in

while trinitarians believe that the father, son, and the holy spirit, are god, they also believe that they are distinct persons within the one god.

thus they are able to speak to one another.

so jesus (one person) speaking to the father (another person) in prayer is not a problem.

herk

hooberus,

I think that most Trinitarians would say that the person Jesus Christ prayed to the person of the Father. One person to another person.

Trinitarians often use Isaiah 9:6 to prove that Jesus is God since it says "unto us a son is given" and he is to be "Everlasting Father." They also use John 10:30 to prove their point that Jesus and the Father are "one," not two. Philip asked Jesus to show the disciples the Father in John 14:7-10. Jesus told Philip, "Have I been so long with you, and yet you have not come to know me, Philip? He who has seen me has seen the Father; how can you say, 'Show us the Father'?" Again, trinitarians use this text to show that seeing Jesus is the same as seeing the Father, and that seeing the Father as God is to see Jesus as God. At Matthew 5:45 and 19:4-6, Jesus gave credit for creation to the Father, but trinitarians use Colossians 1:16 to prove that Christ is creator of the universe, even though that is not what the text actually says.

Trinitarians do not hesitate to use these texts to prove that Jesus is God, even though the texts do not prove such an idea. But if the Trinity were true, and if these texts are to be taken at face value with that in mind, then they prove, not that Jesus is "God the Son" but that he is "God the Father." Thus it is not inconsistent with trinitarian teaching to say that Jesus prayed to himself.

Interestingly, Hebrews 5:7 states: "In the days of his flesh, he [Christ] offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save him from death, and he was heard because of his piety." This text poses two problems for trinitarians: (1) If Christ prayed only to the person of the Father within the Trinity, why is it said that only the Father was "able to save him from death"? Why were "God the Son" and "God the Holy Spirit" unable to save him? (2) If the three Person God is really "One" God as trinitarians claim, then "the One" to whom Christ prayed was actually all three Persons, not just God the Father.

herk

37

John 1:1 and God being "with" God.

by hooberus in

the watchtower says regarding john 1:1: "someone who is "with" another person cannot also be that other person" .

this argument is used by them againist the trinity.

while trinitarians believe that there is only one god, they also believe that there are distinct persons within the one god and that each person is god.

herk

hooberus,

the phrases the "Lord Jesus" and "man Christ Jesus" are referring to the same person. Do you understand this? If so, then I will proceed to answer your point.

I've spoken to trinitarians for 60 years, and I don't remember a time until now when one of them questioned my understanding of the principal teaching they endorse. What I believe about Jesus as a person should be easy to grasp from what I've written above in this thread. It is the trinitarians who are confused, not those who accept the plain statements of Scripture.

An overwhelming majority of the people I've met in my lifetime who have said they believe in the Trinity have been unable to explain it in simple terms, if at all. The average churchgoer has no comprehension of Jesus as a God-man and will often say "That's not what I believe" when the idea is read to him or her from church statements of belief.

Some have admitted, "If knowing God and Jesus is essential for eternal life, why is it so difficult for us to know a clear distinction between the two?" Or, "I've never understood why God is so coy--why he hides from us--by making it so difficult for us to know who or what he really is." Such reactions are a clear illustration of the fact that the Trinity is both unscriptural and unreasonable.

Even in public debates, some teachers of the Trinity have confessed they are not in agreement with other trinitarians on certain points, and yet the teaching they defend is viewed by nearly all trinitarians as of such great weight and so fundamental to Christianity that they despise communion with those who reject their opinions.

Had God intended that none but the scholarly seminary graduate or worldly wise Christian be saved, he would have prepared the Bible for them, filled with hazy terms and theoretical notions and nuances. But 1 Corinthians 1 assures us that God chose the weak and lowly to confound the wise and intellectual. The implication is that the ones shut out from the simplicity of the gospel are those who think they are better at deciphering who God is by their use of mental gymnastics on the Trinity.

Jesus said "the good news is preached to the poor." (Matthew 11:5) That was his business and mission. The gospel of God was a gospel that the poor and less educated could understand in plain and intelligible language.

There would not be such confusion among trinitarian churchgoers if the Bible made it plain that God is a triune deity or if sound reason pointed to such a comprehension of God. Instead the Bible is very clear that God is One and that he is a "he" and not a "they." While some passages can be confused, trinitarians ignore the totality of Scripture.

Truth appeals to our reason. Human reason can grasp divine truth when it is revealed to us. There is absolutely nothing about the Trinity teaching that is either reasonable or scriptural.

herk

37

John 1:1 and God being "with" God.

by hooberus in

the watchtower says regarding john 1:1: "someone who is "with" another person cannot also be that other person" .

this argument is used by them againist the trinity.

while trinitarians believe that there is only one god, they also believe that there are distinct persons within the one god and that each person is god.

herk

hooberus,

What if the resurected Jesus is still human?

Trinitarians claim that Jesus is both God and man, not simply a man. Romans doesn't say that the Father is the God of Jesus the man but that he is the God of the "Lord" Jesus Christ. This is their relationship now, as it was during Christ's mortal life on earth. The following texts also refer to the Godship of the Father over Jesus following the exaltation of Jesus to heavenly glory:

2 Corinthians 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort"
2 Corinthians 11:31 - "The God and Father of the Lord Jesus"
Ephesians 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"
Ephesians 1:17 - "the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory"
1 Peter 1:3 - "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ"
Revelation 1:6 - "His God and Father-- to Him be the glory and the dominion forever and ever"
Revelation 3:16 - The glorified Christ speaks of "the name of my God, and ... the city of my God, ... from my God."

If the Holy Spirit is a member of the Trinity, where is he? Why is it never mentioned that the Holy Spirit is also the God of our Lord Jesus Christ? Why do trinitarians ignore this essential factor if salvation depends upon recognition of a three-Person Godhead that includes "God the Holy Spirit"?

Additionally, Mark 16:19 and many other texts place the glorified Jesus, not upon the throne of God but at God's right hand. And "God the Holy Spirit" is never included in such vivid verbal descriptions. Thus the New Testament writers viewed the Father as the God who is worshiped by Jesus. They never expressed the view that Jesus is the God worshiped by his Father or worshiped by the Holy Spirit. Neither did they suggest that the Father and the Son view the Holy Spirit as their God. Equality within a trinitarian godhead would not be equality if only one member is viewed by the others as the god whom they worship.

Why do trinitarians choose to reject the simple inspired testimony of the New Testament writers and prefer to accept a pagan concept that was introduced into Christianity many years after the Bible was completed?

herk

37

John 1:1 and God being "with" God.

by hooberus in

the watchtower says regarding john 1:1: "someone who is "with" another person cannot also be that other person" .

this argument is used by them againist the trinity.

while trinitarians believe that there is only one god, they also believe that there are distinct persons within the one god and that each person is god.

herk

hooberus,

Strong's says that theos means "a deity," not simply "deity." There is a difference. You want us to believe that theos can mean "God by nature," and it does not. Either a Person is the Almighty God, or he is not. Romans 15:5, 6 clearly shows that the God of Jesus Christ is his Father, and therefore Jesus is not on an equal plane with the Father, as you are so eager to insist. It would be pointless for you to argue, as trinitarians sometimes do, that the Father is the God of Jesus' human nature since the text specifically identifies the resurrected Jesus as the "Lord Jesus Christ."

Angels, Moses, the judges and kings of Israel, as well as Jesus, are all called "God" due to being the agents of the Almighty. However, none of them is equal to the God they represent. Even the devil is called ho theos at 2 Corinthians 4:4, but he is Almighty God only in the minds of those who worship him.

Thomas called Jesus ho theos. But a comparison of Hebrews 1:8, 9, with Psalm 45:6 will show that the kings of Israel were also addressed in that way. In Psalm 45, a king is called Elohim, and this is translated as God with a capital "G" in many Bibles. Hebrews 1 translates Elohim as ho theos. Now note this footnote on Psalm 45:6 in the NIV Study Bible:

O God. Possibly the king's throne is called God's throne because he is God's appointed regent. But it is also possible that the king himself is addressed as "god." The Davidic king (the "LORD's anointed," 2 Sa 19:21), because of his special relationship with God, was called at his enthronement the "son of God (see 2:7; 2 Sa 7:14; 1 Ch 28:6; cf. 89:27). In this psalm, which praises the king and especially extols his "splendor and majesty" (v. 3), it is not unthinkable that he was called "god" as a title of honor (cf. Isa 9:6). Such a description of the Davidic king attains its fullest meaning when applied to Christ, as the author of Hebrews does (Heb 1:8-9).

The NIV Study Bible uses "God" in the main text but uses "god" in its footnote. Nonetheless, the Hebrew word is translated as ho theos in the New Testament, the same expression that Thomas fittingly applied to Jesus, the ultimate king to sit upon the Davidic throne.

Your use of "human" as a comparison is meaningful. Each fully developed human is an individual being separate and distinct from all other humans. Within "human" nature there is more than one human. Using your comparison, there would have to be more than one God within the "God" or "Deity" nature. It is astounding to me that you seem unable to discern that from every angle you are unwittingly pointing to the existence of three unique Gods within your Trinity.

herk

37

John 1:1 and God being "with" God.

by hooberus in

the watchtower says regarding john 1:1: "someone who is "with" another person cannot also be that other person" .

this argument is used by them againist the trinity.

while trinitarians believe that there is only one god, they also believe that there are distinct persons within the one god and that each person is god.

herk

hooberus,

Trinitarians generally interpret John 1:1 as meaning that the Word was with God the Father. This is due to the context of John chapter 1, as well as 1 John chapter 1.

If trinitarians truly abided by "the context of John chapter 1, as well as 1 John chapter 1," they would acknowledge that "the word" is also God the Father. "The word" spoken by God became "flesh" in the man Jesus (verse 14), just as "the word" spoken by God became a book known as "the Bible." The Bible is not God, and yet it is God because as a book it perfectly reflects his personality. The man of flesh produced by "the word" of God also perfectly reflects his personality, though the man is not God Himself.

The same "word" produced the entire universe: "By the word of the LORD the heavens were made, and by the breath of His mouth all their host. For He spoke, and it was done; He commanded, and it stood fast." (Ps. 33:6, 9) "He commanded and they were created." (Ps. 148:5) "By faith we understand that the worlds were prepared by the word of God, so that what is seen was not made out of things which are visible." (Heb. 11:3) "By the word of God the heavens existed long ago." (2 Pe. 3:5)

Trinitarian and Arian translators have chosen to use a capital "W" in John 1 but nowhere else in the Gospel. One should wonder about this inconsistency. Additionally, some translations say "it" instead of "he" and "him" in verses 2 through 4 since the translators see "the word," not as a person but as it truly is, namely, "the word" spoken from the mouth of God the Father.

herk