Posts by herk

18

Jesus is the Lord

by hooberus in

note: "lord" all capitals =yhwh hebrew

the lord of hosts

"in the year that king uzziah died i saw also the lord sitting upon a throne, high and lifted up, and his train filled the temple.

Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

by hooberus in

on several earlier threads i posted scriptures showing that jesus christ is now a man, and is not an angel:

o give thanks to the lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

(note: this must be the lord alone see isaiah 44:24)

herk

Hooberus,

Herk do you agree with the following?: In Luke 22:27 . . .

Yes, if it's in the Bible I most certainly agree with it. That is the difference between us. Trinitarians have come along and tried to give the Bible a new meaning. Jesus did not say at John 14:28, "My Father is greater than I with respect to position but not to nature." He simply said, "My Father is greater than I." He did not in any way qualify his statement as if in some respects his Father was not greater.

Everything in John 14 argues against trinitarianism. If Jesus was God in the same way the Father is God, . . .

He would not have said "believe in God, believe also in me." (Verse 1)
He would not have said "In my Father's house" but in "our" house. (Verse 2)
He would not have said ""I am the way" but "I am the ultimate goal." (Verse 6)
He would not have said "from now on you know the Father, and have seen him." Jesus was not the Father, even as trinitarians acknowledge. He was the reflection or image of the Father, not because he was equal to the Father, but as he clearly explained: "The words that I say to you I do not speak on my own initiative, but the Father abiding in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father and the Father is in me; otherwise believe because of the works themselves." (Verses 7-11) The disciples saw the Father in Jesus, not because Jesus was equal to God, but because he spoke "words" and performed "works" on God's behalf.
He would not have said "he who believes in me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do." He had just stated that it was his Father's "works" that proved others could see the Father when they saw him. Thus, others would see the Father in anyone who performed the "greater works" Jesus foretold. (Verse 12)
He would not have said "I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Helper." If he shared equality with God following his ascension, there would be no need to request anything from another member of the so-called "triune God." If any member of the Trinity was to be asked, and if the Holy Spirit was the "Third Person of the Trinity," and if all members shared equality, the Spirit should have been the one asked, not the Father. (Verse 16)
He would not have said "I am in my Father, and you in me, and I in you." (Verse 20) He would not have so carelessly suggested that membership in the Trinity would be shared by his followers.
He would not have spoken of "the Helper, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in my name." (Verse 26) If the Holy Spirit was an equal member of the Trinity, he would have betrayed a lack of equality since Jesus taught that "the one being sent is lesser than the one who sends him." And why would the spirit come in the name of Jesus if his own name was equal to that of Jesus' name?
He would not have said "I do exactly as the Father commanded me." If he had been an equal member of the Trinity before being born as a human, he would have known due to his own equal awareness without having a need to be commanded by the Father. (Verse 31)

There is nothing in the context that suggests Jesus' inferiority to the Father was by position only.

herk

93

Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

by hooberus in

on several earlier threads i posted scriptures showing that jesus christ is now a man, and is not an angel:

o give thanks to the lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

(note: this must be the lord alone see isaiah 44:24)

herk

hooberus,

Trinitarians believe that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are co-equal in terms of their nature as God. The use of "greater" in John 14:28 is due to position, not nature.

The fact that Jesus took upon himself the form of a servant and became man, does not mean that He was not also God by nature. It is possible for God (while remaining God by nature) to take on a servants form and become a man.

Trinitarians have absolutely no scriptural authority to say Christ is co-equal with God "by nature." If that were true, each Christian would also be equal to God. Colossians 1:19 states that "it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in" Christ. However, Ephesians 3:19 says that we also can be filled with all the fullness of God: ?know the love of Christ which surpasses knowledge, that you may be filled up to all the fullness of God.? This is accomplished by God allowing us to be partakers of His divine nature: ?For by these he has granted to us his precious and magnificent promises, so that by them you may become partakers of the divine nature.? (2 Peter 1:4)

Being ?partakers of the divine nature? does not make us God, and it did not make Christ God. The New International Version Study Bible note on 2 Peter 1:4 says that it means only that ?we are indwelt by God through His Holy Spirit.? Likewise Christ, who was filled with holy spirit without limits, had "all the fullness of God" dwelling in Him.

herk

93

Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

by hooberus in

on several earlier threads i posted scriptures showing that jesus christ is now a man, and is not an angel:

o give thanks to the lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

(note: this must be the lord alone see isaiah 44:24)

herk

hooberus,

greater / servant / sent issues:
Jesus acknowledged, "The Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28)
Jesus was God's "servant," and a servant is not greater than his master. (John 13:16; Acts 3:13, 26; 4:26, 27, 30)
"One who is sent" is not "greater than the one who sent him," but Jesus was "a man sent by God" just as John the Baptist was. (John 1:6; 13:16)

Jesus affirmed without the least qualification, "The Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28) Trinitarians disagree: "The Father, Son and Holy Ghost are co-equal." How can the Father be greater in any way if they are co-equal?
Jesus said, "A slave is not greater than his master." (John 13:16) Trinitarians disagree: "A slave (the Son) is equivalent to his master (the Father)."
Jesus said, "One who is sent is not greater than the one who sent him." (John 13:16) Trinitarians disagree: "The preexistent (prehuman) God the Son (the one sent) had equal authority with God the Father (the sender)."
Jesus said the Jews knew the God they worshiped, and Peter said, "The God of Abraham was the God of our forefathers." (John 4:22; Acts 3:13) Trinitarians imply that Jesus as a member of a triune God was unknowingly worshiped by Abraham and the Jews, including the Jewish forefathers. Thus they deny what Jesus said about the Jews knowing the God they worshiped.
The first century disciples thought of Jesus as a servant like David who was chosen by God. (Matthew 12:18; Acts 3:13, 26; 4:25-27, 30) Trinitarians paint Jesus as the Supreme God who is in no way inferior to or dependent upon the Father Almighty.
Peter said, "The God of Abraham glorified his servant Jesus." (Acts 3:13) Trinitarians suggest that Jesus, possessing authority as Almighty God, glorified himself.
Peter believed that the God of Abraham raised up Jesus as his servant just as he raised up judges and others to instruct his people. (Acts 3:26; Judges 2:16) Trinitarians paint God as both master and servant who raised up and sent himself.
Jesus was sent from God just as John was "sent from God." (John 1:6; 13:16) Trinitarians thus intimate that God sent himself (or, God sent God) in the same manner that he sent John.

herk

93

Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

by hooberus in

on several earlier threads i posted scriptures showing that jesus christ is now a man, and is not an angel:

o give thanks to the lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

(note: this must be the lord alone see isaiah 44:24)

herk

hooberus,

Please list some of these "hundreds of texts that say otherwise"

Jesus did not come of his own initiative but was "sent forth" (John 8:42; 17:8; Galatians 4:4) just as an angel and the Holy Spirit were "sent forth." (Acts 12:11; Galatians 4:6)
God knew the time when Jesus would return, but Jesus knew no more than the angels concerning the "day and hour" of that momentous event. (Matt. 24:36)
God prays to no one, but Jesus spoke to God in prayer. (John 17)
Jesus acknowledged, "The Father is greater than I am." (John 14:28)
Jesus ascended heavenward to "appear for us in God's presence." (Heb. 9:24)
God is Almighty and cannot be exalted to a higher position, but Jesus was exalted by God to a superior position. (Php. 2:9, 10) If Jesus was God and equal to the Father before his human birth, his exaltation would make him greater than God the Father.
The Bible places Jesus below God as "the mediator between God and man." (1 Tim. 2:5)
"The head of Christ is God," but no one is above God. (1 Cor. 11:3)
God will never be subject to anyone, but Christ will "hand the kingdom over to his God" and "subject himself to God." (1 Cor. 15:24, 28)
The Father addresses no one as his God, but Jesus spoke of the Father as "my God." (John 20:17) Paul wrote that the Father is the God of Jesus. (2 Cor. 1:3)
Christ sits not as God but at "God's right hand." (Ps. 110:1)
"No man has seen God at any time," but men have seen Christ. (John 1:18)
No man can see God and live, but men did not die when they saw Christ. (Ex. 33:20)
Jesus said "nobody is good except God," meaning that God is good in a way Jesus was not. (Mark 10:18; Luke 18:19)
The apostles did not regard Jesus as God. If they had, they would have exclaimed as Manoah did, "We will surely die, for we have seen God!" (Judges 13:22)
God received his universal sovereignty from no one else, but Daniel foretold that Jesus would be "given rulership." (Dan. 7:13, 14)
God is eternal, has always been immortal and cannot die, but Jesus did die. (1 Tim. 1:17)
God was alive at the same time Jesus was dead. (Acts 2:24)
God needs no one to save him at any time, but Jesus needed to be saved. (Heb. 5:7)
Jesus was God's "servant," and a servant is not greater than his master. (John 13:16; Acts 3:13, 26; 4:26, 27, 30)
"One who is sent" is not "greater than the one who sent him," but Jesus was "a man sent by God" just as John the Baptist was. (John 1:6; 13:16)
God cannot be sacrificed, but "God did not spare his own Son, but delivered him over for us all." (Rom. 8:32)
No one can give to God "as though He needed anything, since he himself gives to all people life and breath and all things." (Acts 17:25) But God "gave" Jesus "authority to execute judgment," and Jesus said "All authority has been given to me in heaven and on earth." (John 5:27; Matt. 28:18)
Christ did not subject all things to himself, but God "put all things in subjection under his feet," with the exception of God himself. (1 Cor. 15:27; Eph. 1:17, 22; 1 Pe. 3:22)
If Jesus is the all-wise God, why did he have to learn anything? (John 8:28; Heb. 5:8)
God cannot be exalted higher than he always has been, but Jesus was exalted by God to be Prince and Savior. (Acts 5:31)
God has always had a name greater than all others, but "God highly exalted" Jesus "and bestowed on him" a name greater than he previously had. (Php. 2:9)
The Father worships no one, but Jesus worshiped the Father as God. (John 4:22)
The Father is all-powerful as the Almighty God, but Jesus said he could not do anything on his own. (John 5:19; 6:38)
God receives his strength from no one, but Jesus received strength from angels. (Matt. 4:11; Luke 22:43)
God is God, but Jesus is the "image" or reflection of God, not God himself. (Col. 1:15; Heb. 1:3)
"All things" originate with the Father, but Christ is the agent "through" whom all things come. (1 Cor. 8:6)
At his return, Jesus will speak with an archangel's voice instead of with God's voice. (1 Thess. 4:16)
Jesus is to be worshiped in the manner that other humans are to be worshiped. (Compare the use of proskuneo in Matt. 8:2; 18:26; Heb. 1:6 and Rev. 3:9.)
Christ is never given the latreuo type of worship that only God receives. (Matt. 4:10)
No one can command God to do anything, but God commanded Christ. (John 12:49)
Stephen saw two persons in heaven, God and Jesus at God's right hand. He did not see a God composed of three persons. (Acts 7:55)
The contents of Revelation originated with God who passed them to Jesus who in turn passed them to John. (Rev. 1:1) God was the giver, and Jesus and John were the receivers.
Our duty is to acknowledge Jesus, not as God, but as the Son of God. (1 Jo. 4:15)
Satan and the demons who dwell in the invisible world acknowledged Jesus, not as God, but as the Son of God. (Matt. 4:3, 6; Luke 8:28)
Jesus did not "choose" God, but God did "choose" him. (Ps. 2:7, 8)
God is not anointed by anyone, but Jesus is "the anointed of God." (Acts 4:24-27)
The Father does not live "because of" Jesus, but Jesus lives "because of the Father." (John 6:57)
If the Trinity is a "mystery" not to be understood, as is often claimed, how can it be tested? (1 Thess. 5:21)
It was God who "made" Jesus "a little lower than the angels." (Heb. 2:9, 10)
The Father is called "the only true God," but Jesus never is. (John 17:3)
Adam would have been equal with God if the expression "son of God" as applied to Jesus was meant to convey that idea. (Luke 3:38)
Etc., etc.

Jesus demands that our worship of God be "in truth." (John 4:24) Paul warned us about believing in "another Jesus," a Jesus other than the one revealed in the Bible as God's Son, the Messiah promised by the Old Testament prophets. (2 Cor. 11:4)

Trinitarians seem to have rejected the Bible's instructions and warnings. Their preference is for a Jesus other than the one foretold. They call their Jesus "God the Son," an expression they know perfectly well is found nowhere in the Bible. They insist that Jesus referred to himself as God, when the fact is that he never did. The Greek ho theos refers to the Father alone 1,325 times. In sharp contrast, the only sure instance where the title ho theos applies to Jesus is at John 20:28. Most would agree that Hebrews 1:8 is a second clear instance, but it is a quotation from Psalm 45:6 and gives us a key to what Thomas meant when he addressed Jesus as "my Lord and my God." Since the Psalm was addressed to David and those who sat upon his throne, the title belongs to Jesus even more surely since he is the ultimate king to sit upon David's throne. God's angel had promised Mary: ""He will be great and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give him the throne of his father David." (Luke 1:32) This was in complete agreement with God's promise to David: "When your days are complete and you lie down with your fathers, I will raise up your descendant after you, who will come forth from you, and I will establish his kingdom. He shall build a house for my name, and I will establish the throne of his kingdom forever. Your house and your kingdom shall endure before me forever; your throne shall be established forever." (2 Sam. 7:12, 13, 16) It also agreed with the prophecy, "There will be no end to the increase of his government or of peace, on the throne of David and over his kingdom, to establish it and to uphold it with justice and righteousness from then on and forevermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will accomplish this." (Isa. 9:7)

herk

93

Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

by hooberus in

on several earlier threads i posted scriptures showing that jesus christ is now a man, and is not an angel:

o give thanks to the lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

(note: this must be the lord alone see isaiah 44:24)

herk

Deleted by poster.

93

Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

by hooberus in

on several earlier threads i posted scriptures showing that jesus christ is now a man, and is not an angel:

o give thanks to the lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

(note: this must be the lord alone see isaiah 44:24)

herk

Deleted by poster.

93

Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

by hooberus in

on several earlier threads i posted scriptures showing that jesus christ is now a man, and is not an angel:

o give thanks to the lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

(note: this must be the lord alone see isaiah 44:24)

herk

Deleted by poster.

93

Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

by hooberus in

on several earlier threads i posted scriptures showing that jesus christ is now a man, and is not an angel:

o give thanks to the lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

(note: this must be the lord alone see isaiah 44:24)

herk

Nearly all trinitarians use the same texts and arguments that Hooberus does above. There must be a reason why they ignore and even hide some of the facts presented in the Bible about God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit. What could be their motive?

They believe they have the truth, and they've closed their minds to the other side of the argument. Because the Bible states that the Father is God, that Jesus is God, and that the Holy Spirit is God, they pontificate that God is precisely Three Persons, not One Person or Five Persons or Ten Persons. They stick to their pronouncement despite the fact that the Bible plainly says angels are God, Moses is God, David is God, Solomon is God, the judges of Israel are God, and that even the Devil is God [ho theos]. They would object if non-trinitarians suggested that the Devil is also a Trinity since Satan, Peter and Judas--three persons--are called Satan and Devil. (Matthew 16:23; John 6:70) It's okay for them to use that sort of logic when they apply it to God, but it's not okay for others to employ the same sort of logic in defining the Devil. But they're right about the Devil. It's ridiculous to resort to such "logic." Equally ridiculous, however, is the "logic" trinitarians use to arrive at the conclusion that God is Three Persons.

None of the texts that trinitarians use state that God is Three. Most of their favorite texts suggest only that both the Father and Jesus are divine. Often the Holy Spirit--the "Third" member of the Trinity--is overlooked or ignored. They brush aside the hundreds of passages that show plainly that Jesus is not God in the sense that the Father is God. To compensate for those texts that show Jesus could not possibly be God in the full sense of the word, they've invented a "dual nature" for God's Son. They call him a God-man. When he shows human weakness or otherwise indicates that he is not equal to God, they say that's his "human nature" coming through. At all other times he manifests "divine nature." They're not inclined to make such an argument for Moses or David, even though they also were addressed as God due to being God's agents and spokespersons. They also brush aside the Bible teaching that all genuine Christians are destined to share in "divine nature." (2 Peter 1:4; Ephesians 4:13, 14; Hebrews 12:10; 1 John 3:2) So Christ's having "divine nature" does not mean that he is God any more than his followers having "divine nature" means that they will someday be God, in the fullest sense.

Amazingly, trinitarians expect us to believe that Jews who listened intently to Jesus also thought he was God the Son and not simply the Son of God. But the truth is otherwise. First century Jews did not have the luxury of possessing a modern dictionary or cyclopedia produced by orthodoxy that defines a Trinity doctrine developed long after the apostles had died. When people heard Jesus say, "My teaching is not my own. It comes from him who sent me. If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own," they did not argue that Jesus said this from his human nature and that in his divine nature he is still God. (John 7:16) No, unlike people who already believe in the Trinity, when the disciples heard this, it made them think Jesus was not God!

The Trinity developed because philosophers lined up texts as Hooberus has done above--texts that imply Jesus might be God. While doing so, they completely shunned the hundreds of texts that say otherwise. They developed their illogical doctrine over a period of three centuries. Then they told everybody that this is what Jesus and his disciples believed hundreds of years earlier. This same method of propaganda continues to promote the Trinity doctrine in our own day.

herk

93

Is the man Jesus Christ also the LORD?

by hooberus in

on several earlier threads i posted scriptures showing that jesus christ is now a man, and is not an angel:

o give thanks to the lord of lords: for his mercy endureth for ever.

(note: this must be the lord alone see isaiah 44:24)

herk

. . . and there isn't even a single verse that says God is Three Persons or Three Anything!

herk