Posts by herk

92

Does Jesus being the "Son of God" mean that he is not God by nature ?

by hooberus in

in bible times the phrase "the son of god" was understood as a claim to the nature of god, not a claim to be a lesser being:.

" john 19:7. .

ron rhodes commments:.

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

herk

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

herk

92

Does Jesus being the "Son of God" mean that he is not God by nature ?

by hooberus in

in bible times the phrase "the son of god" was understood as a claim to the nature of god, not a claim to be a lesser being:.

" john 19:7. .

ron rhodes commments:.

herk

hooberus,

You should call yourself "humourous."

All my life Trinitarians have used Isaiah 9:5 to show me that the "child born unto us" became not merely "Mighty God," but "Almighty God." Some have, in sincerity, relished telling the following story:

An Irish man talking with his Jewish friend: ?Saul did you hear the great news? My son Patty has become a priest!?
?No, so what?s the big deal about that, John?? Saul asked.
?It?s a very big deal, Saul. As a priest he can one day become a Bishop!? John responded.
?So what?s the big deal about that?? Saul again asked.
?Saul, as Bishop, Patty can one day become a Cardinal. Imagine my son the Cardinal!? John was getting excited now.
?No?, Saul repeated, ?but what?s the big deal about that, John??.
John sputtered out, ? Saul, my friend, as Cardinal, Patty can be...Oh, be still my heart?he can become Pope!!?
And Saul again asks, ?So now, what?s the big deal about that, John??
Now impatient, John demands, ?So what do you expect, for him to become God!?
Almost triumphantly, Saul says, ?And why not, one of our boys made it!?

Various works of Trinitarian theology describe how a human became God under articles or chapters on "Becoming Like God," "Deification," "Divinization," "Formula Concordi," "Hypostasis," "Ousia," "Regeneration," "Theosis," and "Trinity."

The following statements appear in random orthodox publications:

Through the resurrection of Jesus, His humanity was generated, or begotten, in divinity: Man became God; His humanity became divine.
The terminology of deification which is employed by Eastern Fathers is borrowed from the Platonic tradition, while the doctrine itself has biblical roots.
Thus through a divine-human encounter, God became man and man became God.
We find the idea of the deification of the human person the incarnate Word of God as early as in Irenaeus. According to him, the Word ?became what we are in order to make us what He is?. ?The Word (became) man?, says Irenaeus, ?and the Son of God (became) son of man so that man... might become a son of God?. In other words, through the Incarnation of the Word, the human person becomes by adoption what the Son of God is by nature. This theme was developed by Clement and Origen. In the fourth century it found particular attention on the part of Nicene theologians in their polemic with Arianism. St Athanasius made the formula of Irenaeus even more concise: ?God became man in order that we may become gods?.
Thus God became Man and Man became God in one Person. That Jehovah God became Man, and Man became God in one Person, follows as a conclusion from all the preceding propositions of this chapter, especially from these two: that Jehovah the Creator of the universe descended and assumed a Human that He might redeem and save men, and that the Lord by the acts of redemption united Himself to the Father, and the Father united Himself to Him, thus reciprocally and mutually. From that reciprocal union it is very evident that God became Man and Man became God in one Person; and from the union of the two as being a union like that of soul and body, the same conclusion follows. That this is in accordance with the faith of the church at this day, as derived from the Athanasian Creed, may be seen above; that it is also in accordance with the faith of the Evangelical churches may be seen in that chief of their orthodox books, called the Formula Concordi where it is firmly established, both from Sacred Scripture and from the Fathers, as also by rational arguments, that the human nature of Christ was exalted to Divine majesty, omnipotence and omnipresence, and that in Christ Man is God, and God is Man.

So my illustrations are not misleading in the least. Your vehemence illustrates how uninformed the average Trinitarian is concerning his own stated beliefs.

"I for one am tired of your misleading [verbal] illustrations" of what the Bible teaches.

herk

92

Does Jesus being the "Son of God" mean that he is not God by nature ?

by hooberus in

in bible times the phrase "the son of god" was understood as a claim to the nature of god, not a claim to be a lesser being:.

" john 19:7. .

ron rhodes commments:.

herk

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

herk

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

herk

UnDisfellowshipped,

Herk, why does it make any difference whether a person uses phrases that are not in the Bible to describe things that are in the Bible?

No, not if the thoughts are in the Bible. My objection is to the Trinitarian use of phrases that suggest ideas contrary to what the Bible teaches.

I never have, and never will use the husband and wife illustration in reference to God's One Being. I used it in reference to God's UNITY.

Then why bring up the illustration during a discussion of the Trinity? The Trinity claims that God is one divine being or entity with three members. If unity is at issue, then why not claim that all genuine Christians are members of the Godhead, since they are all at unity with God and Christ and one another?

In fact, I do not even talk about God's "Being" when I speak about the Trinity, because the Bible doesn't talk about God's Being.

"Being then God's offspring, we ought not to think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and imagination of man." (Acts 17:29, English Standard Version)
"Therefore since we are God's offspring, we should not think that the divine being is like gold or silver or stone?an image made by man's design and skill." (Acts 17:29, NIV)

Note that there is but one divine being. Trinitarians make their worship laughable by claiming that their god is three persons in one being or in one Godhead. How quaint that all three persons of the Trinity have but one head to share between them! Ah, but remembering that the Son has two natures, we must add a second head for his human nature which is separate from his divine nature.

Absolutely! I'll take an ACCURATE, RELIABLE, FAITHFUL, NON-TAMPERED WITH Bible (such as the King James Version which God used for centuries) any day over the modern, perverted, corrupted, Satanic translations such as the NWT, and some of the other "Modern Bibles".

That statement says a great deal about your respect and regard for other Trinitarians who produced some of those translations. It also says much about your Christianity or lack thereof. I now see a bitterness and spitefulness that I hadn't noticed before.

I prefer Translations that actually agree with the EARLY Christian Fathers' Scripture quotations.

Herk, where are "angels" ever called God in the Bible? The only Angel ever called God is THE Angel of the Lord -- The Pre-Human Jesus Christ who was worshiped and prayed to as YAHWEH!

Angels are called God in Genesis 16:7, 13; 22:8, 11, 15, 16 and Exodus 23:20, 21. To say that the angel of the Lord was the pre-human Jesus is contrary to what is stated in Hebrews 1:1, 2. By the way, "Yahweh" isn't in the KJV! Haven't you defiled yourself by resorting to a Satanic translation?

Herk, where was David ever called God in the Bible, EVER?

According to some Trinitarian scholars, at Psalm 45:6.

Those wicked judges of Israel were FALSE gods, read the Bible:

It appears that you yourself need to do more Bible reading. See Exodus 21:6; 22:8, 9, 28. Also note that Jesus said those judges in Psalm 82 were men "unto whom the word of God came." (John 10:35, KJV)

Herk, was Moses God by his own nature and his own power?

Are you saying the Bible does not call him God and that he can be God only according to your terms?

The Scriptures clearly show that Moses was NOT truly God -- not by nature or position or power. God simply made Moses a mighty one over Pharaoh!

The Scriptures also clearly show that Jesus was NOT truly God--in the Trinity sense. Just as God "made" Moses God to Pharaoh, "God hath made the same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ." (Acts 2:36) God "made" Jesus Lord just as he "made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and all that in them is" and just as he "made the world and all things therein." (Acts 4:24; 17:24, KJV)

herk

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

herk

UnDisfellowshipped,

Why do you, Herk, ALWAYS post the Apostle Peter's confession of Christ as the Messiah and completely ignore the Apostle Thomas' confession of Christ as God?

I've not ignored Thomas' confession at all. In other threads, I've given explanations similar to the following:

Thomas did not call Jesus God the Son or refer to in the Trinitarian sense at all. Thomas was a Jew. He used a mode of expression common to the Old Testament in which accredited representatives of God are referred to as God.

Angels are called God in Genesis 16:7, 13; 22:8, 11, 15, 16 and Exodus 23:20, 21.
Moses is referred to as God at Exodus 7:1.
The judges of Israel are God in Exodus 21:6; 22:8, 9, 28; Psalms 82:1, 6 and John 10:34.
The king on David's throne is called God in the same sense that Jesus is called God, as is seen by comparing Psalm 45:6 with Hebrews 1:8.

Jesus was such an accredited servant of God. (Acts 2:22, NIV) Earlier in John 20, Jesus told Mary, "I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God and your God." (Verse 17) Clearly Jesus was not himself "Very God" since he was to ascend to his God.

Trinitarians seem incapable of seeing God as Jews such as Thomas did. Instead of viewing the term God in the way the Bible uses it, you prefer to see it with the colored glasses of Trinitarianism. There is only one Almighty God. Jesus called him "the only true God." Trinitarians make Jesus appear to be a liar by their claim that he is also "the only true God," something the Bible does not teach.

Some questions for you to answer:

Does the Bible say or not say that other individuals besides the Father and Jesus are God?
Since there is only one true God, which is more reasonable, that both the Father and Jesus are Almighty God or that Jesus is God in the sense that angels, Moses, David, Israel's judges and others are God?
Where in the Bible is there even a hint that God is three rather than one?

herk

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

herk

Richie,

herk

92

Does Jesus being the "Son of God" mean that he is not God by nature ?

by hooberus in

in bible times the phrase "the son of god" was understood as a claim to the nature of god, not a claim to be a lesser being:.

" john 19:7. .

ron rhodes commments:.

herk

frankiespeakin,

So I guess your saying,, in your nice own sweet little way,,,please don't post on this thread,,, Am I reading you right???

All I said is you're "free". I didn't hint that you should please do or don't do anything.

herk