Posts by herk

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

herk

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

herk

ozzie,

BTW didn't Stephen at his martyrdom cry out to Jesus?

As I mentioned above:

The context reveals why Stephen spoke to Jesus as he did. When you last prayed to Jesus, did you see him in a vision right in front of you? Jesus was in the company of Stephen, and Stephen was looking right at him. Such is not likely to be the situation each time someone prays to Jesus or to the Holy Spirit.

Stephen's frame of mind was that God had placed Jesus as his Savior, Lord, Master and Teacher. Jesus was the Head of the church that he was serving by appointment. Any number of reasons can be given for Stephen's inclination to speak to someone who was such a large and perceptible part of his life. Additionally, his outcry was a testimony to his persecutors that Jesus had indeed been raised back to life.

It seems to me that Trinitarians are generally in the habit of reading into the Bible what is not there. Jesus said we should pray to the Father, but in their effort to raise Jesus to equality with Almighty God the Father, Trinitarians believe they've found a loophole here and there that authorizes them to disobey Jesus' precise instructions on how to pray.

It amazes me that, despite the testimony of the Scriptures that God is One, that he is a "he" and not a "they," Trinitarians go all through their lives holding on to an unproven theory that doesn't even make sense to the God-given human mind--a theory that most of them have a most difficult time trying to explain.

herk

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

herk

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

herk

UnD,

Herk, who did Stephen pray to in those Verses?

The context reveals why Stephen spoke to Jesus as he did. When you last prayed to Jesus, did you see him in a vision right in front of you? Jesus was in the company of Stephen, and Stephen was looking right at him. Such is not likely to be the situation each time someone prays to Jesus or to the Holy Spirit.

Herk, who is the Apostle John saying that we should make petitions to?

Several translations say "God" instead of "him" in 1 John 5:14. These include the Contemporary English Version, the NIV, the New Int'l Reader's Version, the Worldwide English Translation, and the Wycliffe Translation. Since you've already condemned these Bible versions as Satanic, there's not much more that I can say in answer to your question.

Herk, who does the Apostle Paul give thanksgiving to?

Again special circumstances are in the picture. Paul was personally selected by Jesus to be the apostle to the Gentiles. In a sense they worked together as Jesus stood near Paul and infused power into him when it was specially needed. (Philippians 4:13)

Herk, what does it mean to "Call on the Name of the Lord Jesus Christ"?

We call upon Jesus as our Saviour and upon his sacrifice to cover our sins, and it in his name and by his authority that we have been commissioned to spread the gospel. But I have doubts that praying to Jesus is involved, in view of all that the Scriptures say to guide us in prayer. I also take issue with your claims regarding other texts. A brief exclamation in praise of or in thanksgiving for Christ is not necessarily a prayer addressed to him.

First Herk claims that Trinitarians are being "arbitrary" because they have different definitions of the word "God" in various Verses. Then, later, Herk claims that whenever The Father is called "God" it MUST mean God Almighty, BUT NO, whenever The Son is called "God", it simply means that He was God's representative, and that it COULD NOT mean that He is God Almighty.

Trinitarians most certainly are being arbitrary. They have absolutely no basis for taking it upon themselves to pontifically pronounce that in this verse "God" means "the Father" but in that verse "God" means the Trinity. On the other hand, it is the Bible itself that makes the distinction between "God" meaning the Almighty and "God" meaning his representative. To not see it that way, one must conclude that the angel, Moses, David and others were Almighty God, which is ridiculous. At any rate, this conclusion is borne out by the context whereas Trinitarians have nothing to guide them as they go about pronouncing their random definitions.

Herk, even if the Trinity had been spelled out as clearly as you want it in the Bible (and I'm not sure you would have believed it then), it would still take some use of logic and understanding and knowledge and discernment to grasp the meaning.

Kindly give us an example of how the Trinity meets the standards of logic and sound reason. The doctrine is so illogical that the average Trinitarian can't explain it let alone understand it.

(1) There is Only One True God by NATURE
(2) There is a Person called "The Father" who is called this One True God by Nature
(3) There is a Person called "The Son" who is called this One True God by Nature
(4) There is a Person called "The Spirit" who is called this One True God by Nature
(5) Logical conclusion: There are Three Persons who are One God by Nature.

Not even one of your five points is stated in the Scriptures as clearly as you try to make them appear. If you cited the texts you have in mind, I could show you that they don't say what you think they say. It's utterly amazing how blind Trinitarians allow themselves to be when they read of God speaking thousands of times of himself as "I" and "me" (singular). In their blindness they give far more emphasis to a comparatively few verses that seem to say to them that others are also God.

I believe, if I am not mistaken, that I already posted the Scriptures where Jesus is called Yahweh (YHWH).

As I mentioned in another post, you've condemned translations that use "Yahweh." The KJV says "Jehovah." It seems you pick and choose at one time what you reject at another time. Very convenient, I'd say.

Lest you forget:

herk

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

herk

UnD & Ozzie,

Nowhere does the Bible instruct us to pray to Jesus or to the Holy Spirit. Jesus is the Christian?s Mediator and High Priest: "For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities." (Hebrews 4:15)

Christ taught his disciples to pray to "Our Father," not to anyone else. (Matthew 6:9; Luke 11:2)

The apostle Paul did not pray to Jesus or to the Holy Spirit: "For this cause I bow my knees unto the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ," (Ephesians 3:14)

The apostle Peter prayed to the Father: "And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear." (1 Peter 1:17)

Also, Jesus said, "If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your Heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?" (Luke 11:11-13) Jesus said our Heavenly Father knows what we need.

James said, "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights," (James 1:17)

In Matthew 7, verse 11, we read, "How much more shall your Father which is in heaven give good things to them that ask Him?" It is obvious, from these scriptures, that we are taught to pray to our Heavenly Father.

Further proof of this can be found in John 16, verse 23 which says, "And in that day, ye shall ask me nothing." Christ himself is saying that we will not pray to him. He goes on in that same verse and says, "Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, He will give it to you." And he said in verse 26: "At that day, ye shall ask in my name: and I say not unto you, that I will pray the Father for you." He tells us to ask in his name because he is the one who paid the price to ransom all mankind from death, because he is the one who has access to the Father, and because he is willing to share his inheritance with us: "And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together." (Romans 8:17)

If we want our prayers to reach our heavenly Father, we must pray through, not to, the Mediator and High Priest he has given to us.

herk

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

herk

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

herk

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

herk

zen,

Good points. I think it's of interest, too, that Trinitarians generally illustrate the Holy Spirit, not as a person, but as a dove.

herk

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

herk

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

herk

Richie,

So, who here is defending the WTS? I, for one, don't agree with what they teach about Jesus. Even so, there's plenty of evidence that, no matter what the so-called "Church Fathers" believed and taught, the Bible itself does not teach the Trinity. The above quotes from the New Catholic Encyclopedia and the Encyclopedia Americana make that clear. So do many other reputable sources.

The American Constitution is 200 years old, and today there is disagreement among many over what some of its statements mean. The same is true of the Bible. Just a few hundred years after its completion the "Church Fathers" wrangled with each other over its meaning. If some of them believed Christ was God, so what? It's what the Bible itself says that matters, not what uninspired men said about it, even if they had made their comments while it was being written.

herk