Posts by herk

102

The Trinity in the Old Testament

by hooberus in

"and god said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

" genesis 1:26 .

note the plural "our image", "our likeness" yet from other verses it is clear that man was created in gods image and likeness (singular).. "so god created man in his own image, in the image of god created he him; male and female created he them.

herk

Hooberus,

The evidence that I am using comes mainly from the Biblical text itself.

There are thousands of instances in the Bible where God speaks of himself as "I," "me" or "myself." If you are truly being guided by "the Biblical text itself," you will readily acknowledge that God is a single Person, not three Persons. "I" does not mean "us" or "we." It is a singular pronoun. Each of us speaks for oneself as a singular person when using the singular pronoun "I" just as God does. In the few instances where God says "us" or "our," it should be plainly obvious that he is talking about himself and at least one other person outside of himself, just as we include at least one other person when we say "our," "us" or "we." If the Bible was a trinitarian document, God would have said "our," "us" and "we" those thousands of times instead of saying "I," "me," "mine" or "myself." It is hardly possible to reason with someone who says he is going by the evidence when it is precisely the evidence that he is ignoring as if it just doesn't exist!

It seems, hooberus, that you can't see the forest for the trees, and that the trees blinding you to the whole picture are not even genuine. You are so involved in your interpretation of a small number of favourite texts that you can't see the Bible's true portrayal of who God is. You are so caught up in your biased view of the two words "us" and "our" in the first part of Genesis that you don't realize what the vast majority of biblical texts -- thousands of them -- are trying to tell you. In comparison with the Scriptures as a whole, the showpieces that preoccupy trinitarians are basically obscure and petty, but you allow these to stand in the way of getting an overwhelming view of God that is distinctly intelligible and true.

Every writer of the Old Testament was led by the holy spirit, but that spirit never led them to become trinitarians. None of them viewed or addressed God as a trinity. But you want us to believe that you have a sharper insight than they did. You see a trinity in what they wrote even though they did not. Simple honesty should compel you to admit that it is not the holy spirit that has led you to believe that a divine trinity exists in the pages of the Old Testament. Instead of being guided either by "the Biblical text itself" or the holy spirit that infused and preserved that text, you are allowing yourself to be misled by the teachings of other men who show no evidence at all of ever being inspired or led by God.

Herk

102

The Trinity in the Old Testament

by hooberus in

"and god said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

" genesis 1:26 .

note the plural "our image", "our likeness" yet from other verses it is clear that man was created in gods image and likeness (singular).. "so god created man in his own image, in the image of god created he him; male and female created he them.

herk

Hooberus,

Which of these options is supported by other verses?

Your question illustrates why it becomes so tiring when discussing matters with trinitarians. You are so intent on promoting your theory that you simply trudge on as if we haven't said anything in rebuttal. Have you read my posts? Have you considered what I wrote about Genesis 3:22-24 and Isaiah 6:1, 8, for example? These and other texts show there were other heavenly persons (cherubim and seraphim) present when God spoke of "us." You said "I believe that the 'us' refers to God alone." But there is not a single text in the entire Bible where other so-called members of a trinity are mentioned when God uses the term "us." So, what evidence can you possibly offer that suggests the majority of scholars are wrong and you are right in this matter? What evidence can you offer to show that Moses the compiler/writer of Genesis believed in a trinity (unlike all his countrymen) and that he intended to give a trinitarian meaning to what he wrote? If he was like all other Israelites who did not believe that God was using a trinitarian vocabulary, what solid reason can you offer for believing that God's vocabulary here in Genesis was indeed trinitarian?

Herk

102

The Trinity in the Old Testament

by hooberus in

"and god said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

" genesis 1:26 .

note the plural "our image", "our likeness" yet from other verses it is clear that man was created in gods image and likeness (singular).. "so god created man in his own image, in the image of god created he him; male and female created he them.

herk

Hooberus,

These people (such as the watchtower) do in fact make at least one angel a co-creator with God.

I'm one of the last persons who would defend the WT Society, but I know for a fact that they deny any angel or other person served as "a co-creator with God."

I believe that the "us" refers to God alone.

We have the freedom, of course, to believe anything we want. But where are your facts? Where is your evidence? As the Word Biblical Commentary and many other reputable sources show, "It is now universally admitted that this was not what the plural meant to the original author."

Herk

102

The Trinity in the Old Testament

by hooberus in

"and god said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

" genesis 1:26 .

note the plural "our image", "our likeness" yet from other verses it is clear that man was created in gods image and likeness (singular).. "so god created man in his own image, in the image of god created he him; male and female created he them.

herk

Hooberus,

Morey says: "The only problem with this argument is that there was no plural of majesty in the Hebrew Language in biblical times." The same argument can be stated even more forcefully against the idea that God in the Hebrew Language was a plurality of persons. Those who spoke Hebrew in biblical times did not worship a triune God. The Hebrew shema emphatically states that "the Lord our God is one Lord." (Deut. 6:4; Mr. 12:29) He is not three Lords. He is "one Lord." Until this day the Jews vehemently reject the concept of God being a trinity.

As shown by Gordon J. Wenham in Word Biblical Commentary on Genesis, p. 27, "Christians have traditionally seen [Genesis 1:26] as adumbrating [foreshadowing] the Trinity. It is now universally admitted that this was not what the plural meant to the original author."

Morey also says concerning the plural of majesty: "The fundamental error resided in the attempt to take a modern monarchical idiosyncrasy and read it back into an ancient text when such an idiosyncrasy was unknown at that time." It is also a "fundamental error" to attempt to take the trinity concept of centuries later "and read it back into an ancient text when such an idiosyncrasy was unknown at that time."

There is no need for guesswork in identifying who God was speaking to when he said ?us" and "our.? Just a few chapters later, God said "the man has become like one of us," and the context mentions other heavenly persons, the cherubim. (Gen. 3:22-24) In the beginning of the sixth chapter of Isaiah, there is a similar passage describing God as he converses with other heavenly persons, the seraphim:

In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Lord sitting on a throne, high and lifted up, and the train of His robe filled the Temple. Above it stood seraphim; each one had six wings: with two he covered his face, with two he covered his feet, and with two he flew . . . Also, I heard the voice of the Lord, saying, ?Whom shall I send, and who will go for Us?? Then I said, ?Here am I! Send me.? (Isaiah 6:1, 8)

Typical of trinitarians, you show no hesitation to distort and stretch the truth in an effort to prove your point. Why are you so eager to label the members of God's heavenly court as "co-creators" simply because they were present and working along with him in the carrying out of his purpose? Are we also God because the Bible calls us "God's fellow workers"? (1 Co. 3:9; 2 Co. 6:1)

Daniel 7:10 says "Thousands upon thousands were attending him, and myriads upon myriads were standing before him." It is inconceivable that these heavenly hosts were ignored during the founding of the earth and when humans were created, "when the morning stars sang together, and all the sons of God shouted for joy." (Job 38:7; comp. Job 1:6.) Note Psalm 103:20, 21: "Bless the Lord, you his angels, mighty in strength, who perform his word, obeying the voice of his word! Bless the Lord, all you his hosts, you who serve him, doing his will." Can you imagine them sitting around and doing nothing when God said, "Let there be light," "Let there be an expanse," and "Let us make man"? (Gen. 1, 2) They "perform his word, obeying the voice of his word." They "serve him, doing his will." Still, there is no basis for claiming they are "co-creators." They gave support and assistance, but God deserves the credit and glory. "Are they not all ministering spirits?" (Heb. 1:14)

You quoted Genesis 1:27: "So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them." If God is a Trinity, and we were created in the image of God, why are we not also each a trinity? Where is the individual on earth who is composed of three distinct persons? Scripturally speaking, the fact that none of us is a triunity of persons bears out the fact that God is also not a triunity of persons.

Herk

7

What is the gospel of Jesus

by galaxy7 in

i am confused at what really is the gospel of jesus.

does anyone here still believe in a paradise on earth?

herk

the kingdom is within you

Jesus made that statement to the Pharisees, not to his disciples. He obviously did not mean that God's kingdom resided within the persons or hearts of his enemies. (Luke 17:20-22) Other translations suggest that the kingdom already existed among them. That was true in the sense that the king in the person of Jesus was there with them:

"God's kingdom is here with you." (Contemporary English Version)
"the kingdom of God is in the midst of you." (Darby Translation)
"the kingdom of God is in the midst of you." (English Standard Version)
"the kingdom of God is in your midst." (New American Standard Bible)

Herk

102

The Trinity in the Old Testament

by hooberus in

"and god said, let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.

" genesis 1:26 .

note the plural "our image", "our likeness" yet from other verses it is clear that man was created in gods image and likeness (singular).. "so god created man in his own image, in the image of god created he him; male and female created he them.

herk

Hooberus,

Your argument has been rejected by most trinitarian scholars. Note, for example, the following footnotes in The NIV Study Bible:

Genesis 1:1: God created. The Hebrew noun Elohim is plural but the verb is singular, a normal usage in the OT when reference is to the one true God. This use of the plural expresses intensification rather than number and has been called the plural of majesty, or of potentiality.
Genesis 1:26: us ... our ... our. God speaks as the Creator-King, announcing his crowning work to the members of his heavenly court (see 3:22; 11:7; Isa 6:8; see also 1Ki 22:19-23; Job 15:8; Jer 23:18).
Genesis 3:22: us. See note on 1:26.
Genesis 11:7: let us. See notes on 1:1,26.
Isaiah 6:8: for us. The heavenly King speaks in the divine council. As a true prophet, Isaiah is made privy to that council, as were Micaiah (1 Ki 22:19-20) and Jeremiah (23:18,22). Cf. Ge 1:26; 11:7; Am 3:7.

Your argument regarding Genesis 19:24 is also a bit of a stretch. The expressions "fire from the Lord" and "fire of the Lord" appear often in the writings of Moses. (Ge 19:24; Le 10:2; Nu 11:1, 3; 16:35; 26:10) It is a very weak point, indeed, to say that two persons of a triune god are meant simply because "the Lord" speaks of "fire from the Lord." Your example illustrates that some trinitarians often strain and struggle to an unreasonable extent in order to find evidence that they desperately need for support of their very weak case.

Herk

7

What is the gospel of Jesus

by galaxy7 in

i am confused at what really is the gospel of jesus.

does anyone here still believe in a paradise on earth?

herk

1 corinthians 15:1-25 is the christian gospel that should be being preached

There should be no doubt about this. In fact, the entire chapter is about "the gospel of Jesus." Paul described everything in that chapter as "the gospel which I preached to you, which also you received, in which also you stand, by which also you are saved, if you hold fast the word which I preached to you." (Verse 1)

Chapter 15 of 1 Corinthians can be divided in this way:

Verses 1-11: Christ's death and resurrection.
Verses 12-23, 26, 35-49, 52-57: The resurrection of God's people who have died and the abolishing of all death.
Verse 23: Christ's return when he comes to preside over his kingdom.
Verses 24-28: After Christ has abolished all opposing authority and power, he hands back "the kingdom" to God his Father.
Verses 29-34, 50, 58: Requirements for resurrection into the kingdom include baptism, knowledge of God, rebirth and endurance in Christian living.
Verses 50-53: Christians who are alive when Christ returns will enter "the kingdom of God" by being changed into immortal persons.

John the Baptist, Jesus and the apostles all preached "the gospel of the kingdom." As shown in 1 Corinthians 15, that kingdom gospel embraces Christ's death, resurrection and kingdom, as well as what is required for entry into Christ's kingdom.

Herk

7

What is the gospel of Jesus

by galaxy7 in

i am confused at what really is the gospel of jesus.

does anyone here still believe in a paradise on earth?

herk

everyone has their opinion about this subject

Then why is it that most people never venture their opinion out loud? When was the last time you heard someone in your family or neighbourhood talk to you about "the gospel," unless the person was a seriously religious believer in Christ?

no one has bothered to consider what Jesus himself said. Fascinating.

What about the texts above that quote Jesus, as well as several others that could be cited? Are you telling us that you alone spend time with the teachings of Jesus and that everybody else, scholars included, have never given any thought to what he said?

Jesus summed up the entire Jewish Law and HIS gospel with the simple statement to love your Creator and to love your fellow man.

Would you mind giving us at least one verse where he said love sums up his "gospel"? Can you show us even one verse where the two words "gospel" and "love" are found together?

7

What is the gospel of Jesus

by galaxy7 in

i am confused at what really is the gospel of jesus.

does anyone here still believe in a paradise on earth?

herk

Galaxy7,

I hope this explanation is helpful:

God placed Adam and Eve on earth. He never mentioned that he planned to take them to heaven someday. Their destiny would be changed only if they disobeyed God by eating of the forbidden tree. God has a purpose for the earth. He desires that it be inhabited. More than that, he will transform this planet so that "the earth shall be full of the knowledge of the Lord, as the waters cover the sea." (Isaiah 11:9) The ancient prophets never spoke about going to heaven. Instead, they said that someday in the future there will be peace among animals. (Isaiah 11:6-9), peace among nations (Isaiah 2:4), and peace on earth. (Isaiah 9:7; Psalm 72:7) Sickness and sorrow will vanish. (Isaiah 35:5, 6) There will be no more deserts, and there will be good crops all the time. (Isaiah 35:1-7; 55:13; Amos 9:13, 14) The prophets also spoke of a kingdom that God would establish for ruling the wonderful world to come on earth. The prophet Daniel foretold concerning the king: "His dominion is an everlasting dominion that will not pass away, and his kingdom is one that will never be destroyed." (Daniel 7:13, 14) Several prophets said this future king would be a descendant of David. (2 Samuel 7:12-16; 1 Chronicles 17:7-14; Psalm 89:3, 4, 27-37; 132:11, 12; Isaiah 9:6, 7; 11:1-12; Jeremiah 23:5, 6; 33:15-26) The main message that John the Baptist, Jesus and the apostles preached was "the gospel of the kingdom." (Matthew 3:2; 4:23; 9:35; Luke 4:43; Luke 8:1; Acts 20:25; 28:31) The apostle Matthew called it "the kingdom of heaven." (Matthew 3:2; 4:17; 5:3, 10, 19, 20; etc.) The apostle Paul called it a "heavenly kingdom." (2 Timothy 4:18) Matthew and Paul were not saying that the kingdom would exist in heaven. The other gospel writers use another expression for "the kingdom of heaven." They call it "the kingdom of God." (Mark 1:15; Luke 4:43; John 3:3; etc.) This simply means that the source of the kingdom is God in heaven. Jesus and his associates preached about the same kingdom that the prophets foretold. In fact, their gospel was the same gospel preached by those prophets. The apostle Paul said that "we preach to you the good news of the promise made to the fathers" and that God "announced the gospel in advance to Abraham" (Acts 13:32; Galatians 3:8) He wrote that as an apostle he had been "set apart for the gospel of God--the gospel he promised beforehand through his prophets in the Holy Scriptures." (Romans 1:1, 2) When standing before King Agrippa, he said in his defense: "And now it is because of my hope in what God has promised our fathers that I am on trial today. This is the promise our twelve tribes are hoping to see fulfilled as they earnestly serve God day and night. O king, it is because of this hope that the Jews are accusing me." (Acts 26:6, 7) And he said to believing and unbelieving Jews in Rome: "For this reason I have asked to see you and talk with you. It is because of the hope of Israel that I am bound with this chain." (Acts 28:20) The hope of Israel was not life in heaven. If they remained faithful to God, the promise given to them was that they would be resurrected to life on earth in the kingdom of David's great descendant, the Messiah, the Seed of Abraham. Jesus is that Messianic Seed of Abraham and David. His kingdom will be on earth, not in heaven. This is made very clear in the following Bible verses:

Isaiah 9:6, 7: "For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: ... Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom." (David's throne and kingdom were on earth, not in heaven.)
Daniel 2:35, 44: "The stone that smote the image became a great mountain, and filled the whole earth. ... And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."
Matthew 19:28: "Jesus replied, 'Yes, you have followed me. In the re-creation of the world, when the Son of Man will rule gloriously, you who have followed me will also rule, starting with the twelve tribes of Israel.'" (It is the earth that will undergo a "re-creation," not heaven. It is here that creation has been damaged by sin. It is here where God's will needs to be done as it has always been done in heaven.)
Matthew 25:31, 32: "When he finally arrives, blazing in beauty and all his angels with him, the Son of Man will take his place on his glorious throne. Then all the nations will be arranged before him and he will sort the people out, much as a shepherd sorts out sheep and goats." (Jesus will arrive on earth. Here is where he will "take his place on his glorious throne." Good and bad people of "all the nations" are surely not going to be taken to heaven to be separated by Christ. That is something he will do when he gathers them together here on earth.)
Luke 1:32,33: "He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David: and he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end."
Luke 19:11-27: "While he had their attention, and because they were getting close to Jerusalem by this time and expectation was building that God's kingdom would appear any minute, he told this story: 'There was once a man descended from a royal house who needed to make a long trip back to headquarters to get authorization for his rule and then return. But first he called ten servants together, gave them each a sum of money, and instructed them, "Operate with this until I return." ... When he came back bringing the authorization of his rule, he called those ten servants to whom he had given the money to find out how they had done.'" (Jesus was describing his own 'coming back' to the earth with "the authorization of his rule.")
Luke 22:28-30: "However, you are the ones that have stuck with me in my trials; and I make a covenant with you, just as my Father has made a covenant with me, for a kingdom, that you may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones to judge the twelve tribes of Israel." (Eating and drinking are earthly activities, not heavenly ones. And there is nothing in the Bible to suggest that the Jews will be taken to heaven in order to be judged or ruled.)
Acts 1:3, 6, 7: "After his death, he presented himself alive to them in many different settings over a period of forty days. In face-to-face meetings, he talked to them about things concerning the kingdom of God. When they were together for the last time they asked, 'Master, are you going to restore the kingdom to Israel now? Is this the time?' He told them, 'You don't get to know the time. Timing is the Father's business.'" (After teaching the apostles for 40 days about the kingdom, their understanding was clearly that the kingdom would be upon the earth.)
Acts 3:19-24: "Now it's time to change your ways! Turn to face God so he can wipe away your sins, pour out showers of blessing to refresh you, and send you the Messiah he prepared for you, namely, Jesus. For the time being he must remain out of sight in heaven until everything is restored to order again just the way God, through the preaching of his holy prophets of old, said it would be. ... All the prophets from Samuel on down said the same thing, said most emphatically that these days would come."
Acts 17:31: "Because he has set a day in which he purposes to judge the inhabited earth in righteousness by a man whom he has appointed, and he has furneished a guarantee to all men in that he has resurrected him from the dead."
Romans 8:21: "The creation itself also will be set free from enslavement to corruption and have the glorious freedom of the children of God." (The creation needing to be set free from corruption is upon earth, not in heaven.)
2 Thessalonians 1:7, 10: "The revelation of the Lord Jesus from heaven with his powerful angels ... at the time he comes to be glorified in connection with is holy ones and to be regarded in that day with wonder in connection with all those who exercised faith."
2 Timothy 4:1: "Christ Jesus--who will someday judge the living and the dead when he appears to set up his Kingdom."
Hebrews 1:6: "But when he again brings his Firstborn into the inhabited earth, he says: "And let all God's angels do obeisance to him."
Hebrews 2:5: "For it is not to angels that he has subjected the inhabited earth to come,"
Revelation 5:10: "And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth."
Revelation 11:15: "The kingdom of the world is now the Kingdom of our God and his Messiah! He will rule forever and ever!"

Galatians 4 does not contradict the general outline of the Scriptures regarding the coming kingdom of the Messiah. When Paul speaks in verse 26 of the "Jerusalem above which is our mother," he does not mean that the kingdom exists in heaven. He is quoting a Messianic Psalm which describes Zion (Jerusalem) as "the mother of us all." (Psalm 87:5 in the Septuagint) Often in Jewish thinking, the good things of the future are said to be stored now with God. They will be revealed on the day of the Messiah's appearance in power and glory. For example, Paul speaks of "the faith and love which spring from the hope that is stored up for you in heaven and that you have already heard about in the word of truth, the Gospel." (Colossians 1:5) Peter speaks of the hope of eternal life in this way: "For God has reserved a priceless inheritance for his children. It is kept in heaven for you, pure and undefiled, beyond the reach of change and decay. And God, in his mighty power, will protect you until you receive this salvation, because you are trusting him. It will be revealed on the last day for all to see." (1 Peter 1:4, 5) Hebrews 11:16 says something similar, and it should be helpful in understanding Galatians 4:26. It says concerning God's ancient faithful servants, "All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for he has prepared a city for them." Those faithful people did not actually see the fulfillment of the promises with their literal eyes. With their "mind's eye" they saw a better world coming. They were no part of this world and viewed themselves as exiles on the earth. They desired a better country than the one they were living in. They desired a country of God's making. The city he has prepared for them will be realized upon their resurrection in the coming kingdom of the Messiah. In Hebrews 12:22 that city is called "heavenly Jerusalem" because it is the glorious model city that exists in the mind of God. It is nothing like any city in this present evil world. In Revelation 3:12, Jesus called it "the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God." And in Revelation 21:2, the apostle John said "I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband." So, the "Jerusalem above" is not an actual Jerusalem that existed in heaven when Paul used that expression. It existed then and it exists now in the mind of God. It is the Jerusalem destined to appear on earth when Jesus comes to establish his kingdom on Mount Zion. Herk

90

Which Bible Translation is Currently the MOST Accurate in Your Opinion?

by Frannie Banannie in

i really wanna know.

i need the most accurate version to refer to in order to continue a project i'm working on.

frannie b

herk

"scholar,"

Whatever criticism can be maid about the quality of the NWT, they are to be praised for their preservation of their anonymity.

No doubt you feel the same about Osama bin Laden, eh, and all others who hide who or where they are?

herk