Posts by herk

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

herk

UnDisfellowshipped,

The Trinity is NOT a "Three-Headed God" like the Watchtower occasionally claims.

. . . and like Trinitarians themselves occasionally illustrate:

herk

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

herk

Undisfellowshipped,

My beliefs are based entirely on what I have read in the Scriptures. ...

There are Three Persons who are the One True God. All Three share all of the Attributes listed above. The Three Persons are: The Father, The Son [Jesus Christ], and The Holy Spirit. All Three share the Name Yahweh (Jehovah).

If your beliefs are based "entirely" on what you "have read in the Scriptures," where did you read in the Scriptures that the One True God is "Three Persons"? Why not tell us where in the Bible you found the precise phrase "three persons"? Also, why not tell us where you found that the "name" of Jesus and the name of the Holy Spirit is "Yahweh (Jehovah)"? Others of us have read the Bible several times cover-to-cover, and we've never found what you have found. So, did you actually find these ideas spelled out clearly in the Bible, or did you have to enlist some form of "logic" and "reason" to arrive at your conclusions? herk

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

herk

UnDisfellowshipped,

I can understand why certain people do not understand the Trinity, especially the way the Watchtower Society (and certain other religions) has always misrepresented the Trinity.

People were confused about the Trinity long before the WT Society came into existence. It is debatable whether the WT has misrepresented the Trinity in view of their many quotations from Trinitarian sources. Surely they haven't distorted the meaning of every single one of the hundreds of word-for-word quotations found in their literature!

You misrepresent the facts by passing blame on the WTS and others. Trinitarians themselves say their doctrine is a mystery and that it is unexplainable, that it must be accepted on faith rather than on the basis of logic and reason.

So please call a spade a spade. Confusion exists concerning the Trinity basically because Trinitarians themselves are not in agreement about its meaning. The Eastern Orthodox Church differs from the Western traditions regarding the relation of the Holy Spirit to the Father and the Son. Some television evangelists differ greatly from the Reformed Churches in their concept of Christ?s divinity while he was on earth. Yet all these claim that Christ is God and that the Bible supports their position. Surely if the Trinity were a part of Bible doctrine, and especially if one had to believe it to be saved, it would be clearly defined in Scripture. Yet there is no Trinitarian formula in the Bible and Trinitarians themselves cannot agree on a definition. If one is to believe in the Trinity, how is he to know which definition is correct, since none appears in the Bible?

Trinitarians contend that ?the Father is God, the Son is God, the Holy Spirit is God, and together they make one God.? That expression is not in the Bible, and it is illogical. They teach that Jesus is both 100 percent man and 100 percent God. However, God invented logic and mathematics. He gave us mental and spiritual abilities that enable us to know him and his world. He did not intend that we should understand three persons when he said that he is ?One God.? And just as he did not give us the ability to fathom a round square, he did not give us the ability to make 100 percent +100 percent = 100 percent, without putting aside the laws of mathematics that he designed.

The blame for confusion about the Trinity rests entirely at the feet of Trinitarians.

herk

287

All About The Trinity

by UnDisfellowshipped in

when jesus was about to die, he showed who his superior was by praying: "father, if you wish, remove this cup from me.

the one god is eternal (has always existed and always will), immortal (his divine nature cannot die), omnipotent (all-powerful), omniscient (all-knowing), omnipresent (he is everywhere at the same time), god is the only one who can read human hearts and minds, god cannot sin and cannot lie, god does not change his morals or his nature.

the trinity is not one person revealed three different ways (this is what "oneness pentecostals" believe).

herk

38

Is Jesus inferior because it says that He will "be subject" in 1 Cor 15:28?

by hooberus in

"and when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that god may be all in all.

" 1 corinthians 15:28. .

the watchower implies that since jesus is said to be "subject" unto "him that put all things under him" that therefore jesus is inferior to god, and the trinity is thus not true.

herk

38

Is Jesus inferior because it says that He will "be subject" in 1 Cor 15:28?

by hooberus in

"and when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that god may be all in all.

" 1 corinthians 15:28. .

the watchower implies that since jesus is said to be "subject" unto "him that put all things under him" that therefore jesus is inferior to god, and the trinity is thus not true.

herk

hooberus,

Jesus can be subject to his father, yet equal to his father by nature.

The Bible shows clearly that Jesus and the Father are not of the same nature:

God is spirit (John 4:24), yet even after his resurrection Jesus said of himself that he was not a spirit, but flesh and bone. (Luke 24:39)
Jesus is very plainly called a man many times. (John 8:40; Acts 2:22; 17:31; 1 Timothy 2:5, etc.) But ?God is not a man.? (Numbers 23:19) He says ?I am God, and not man.? (Hosea 11:9)
"Son of man" is often a reference to ordinary humans. (Job 25:6; Psalm 80:17; 144:3; Ezekiel 2:1; 2:3; 2:6; 2:8; 3:1; 3:3; 3:4; 3:10; 3:17; 3:25) Jesus is often called ?a son of man? or ?the son of man.? That designation carefully distinguishes him from God. Numbers 23:19 specifically says that God is not ?a son of man.?
God is eternal and was not born. Christ, on the other hand, was ?begotten,? meaning that he had a beginning. If he did not have a beginning, terms like "begotten" and "son" with reference to Christ would be misleading.
Jesus is called ?Son of God? more than 50 times in the Bible. Not once is he called ?God the Son.? Others who are not God are also said to be sons of God. (Genesis 6:2, 4; Job 1:6; 2:1; 38:7; Matthew 5:9; Luke 3:38; 20:36; Romans 8:14, 19; Galatians 3:26)
Adam, a man, caused mankind?s problems, and Romans 5:19 says that a man will undo those problems: ?For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.? Some Trinitarians teach that only God could pay for the sins of mankind, but the Bible clearly teaches that a man has done it.
Jesus, the man, is the mediator between God and men. 1 Timothy 2:5 says: ?For there is one God and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.? He is not called the "one mediator between God and men, the God Christ Jesus." Christ is clearly called a ?man,? even after his resurrection. Also, if Christ were himself God, he could not be the mediator ?between God and man.? As mediator between God and Israel, Moses also was a man and not God.

herk

38

Is Jesus inferior because it says that He will "be subject" in 1 Cor 15:28?

by hooberus in

"and when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that god may be all in all.

" 1 corinthians 15:28. .

the watchower implies that since jesus is said to be "subject" unto "him that put all things under him" that therefore jesus is inferior to god, and the trinity is thus not true.

herk

hooberus,

This reasoning assumes that being "subject" implies an inferior nature. However, in many other places persons are "subject" or in "subjection" to another with whom they share an equal nature.

Whenever the Bible speaks of Christlike subjection to God, it has just as much to do with "nature" as it does with "position." Christ is not equal to God "by nature" just as Christians subject to God are not equal to God "by nature."

Rom. 10:3 - they did not subject themselves to the righteousness of God.
Heb. 12:9 - Furthermore, we had earthly fathers to discipline us, and we respected them; shall we not much rather be subject to the Father of spirits, and live?
Jas. 4:7 - Submit therefore to God.
Jas. 4:10 - Humble yourselves in the presence of the Lord, and he will exalt you.
1 Pe. 5:6 - Therefore humble yourselves under the mighty hand of God, that he may exalt you at the proper time.

herk

38

Is Jesus inferior because it says that He will "be subject" in 1 Cor 15:28?

by hooberus in

"and when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that god may be all in all.

" 1 corinthians 15:28. .

the watchower implies that since jesus is said to be "subject" unto "him that put all things under him" that therefore jesus is inferior to god, and the trinity is thus not true.

herk

hooberus,

The use of the terms "when" and "then" would seem to indicate that prior to the time of "all things" being subdued to the Son that He is not under the type of subjection described in 1 Corinthian 15:28.

Prior to the time of "all things" being subjected to the Son, they were not in subjection to the Son, and therefore he could not have been Almighty God at that time. The Son will not be Almighty God after all things are returned to the Father for all time to come. The Son never has been and never will be Almighty God. The Father alone is Almighty God from past eternity into the eternal future.

herk

38

Is Jesus inferior because it says that He will "be subject" in 1 Cor 15:28?

by hooberus in

"and when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that god may be all in all.

" 1 corinthians 15:28. .

the watchower implies that since jesus is said to be "subject" unto "him that put all things under him" that therefore jesus is inferior to god, and the trinity is thus not true.

herk

38

Is Jesus inferior because it says that He will "be subject" in 1 Cor 15:28?

by hooberus in

"and when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that god may be all in all.

" 1 corinthians 15:28. .

the watchower implies that since jesus is said to be "subject" unto "him that put all things under him" that therefore jesus is inferior to god, and the trinity is thus not true.