The WTS's success rate on predictions is, what, maybe 2%?....If that?
And yes, who really takes astrology seriously these days? I can imagine the incredulous look on householder's faces already when jws come knocking with that issue ready to offer.
rocketman
JoinedPosts by rocketman
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The Dying (and Dumb) Awake magazine (Aug 8 '05)
by metatron inwell, yet another awake has arrived giving us all the chance to speculate that .
"jehovah's organization" may be getting "too stupid to live".. this month's jawdropper concerns the article "is astrology the key to your future?".
consider this negative appraisal of astrology:.
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Genesis Chapter 34
by rocketman inwhether you think the bible is the word of god or not, one thing is pretty clear: it relates some disturbing stories.
some of those stories can even be termed as sordid.
genesis 34 contains an account of moral degradation that is almost unrivaled (though the story contained in genesis 38 comes close, and judges 19 probably exceeds it) in terms of moral perfidy.. genesis 34 relates the account of the sexual violation of jacob's daughter dinah, followed by the shocking overreaction by her brothers.
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rocketman
Gumby, God and Jacob, in case you haven't heard, suffered from short-term memory loss.
Actually the first name repetition on God's part is evidently simply to confirm the change. Similar examples appear when comparing Gen 21:31 with 26:33 (where Beersheba is apparently named twice, though by different people - Abraham and then Isaac) and again when comparing 28:19 with 35:15 (where Bethel is twice named, both times by Jacob). Also, God reiterated his promise to Abraham on several occasions. Again, short-term memory loss seems like a good explanation, though I'd imagine that these examples might illustrate a literary feature of the book, since Genesis features several different literary devices. It's also God's way, apparently, of emphasizing that he will indeed carry out what he speaks.
As for Genesis 32:30, the common explanation is that Jacob actually wrestled with an angel, and simply used the term God interchangeably, as he did in 48:15 (referring to God as "the Angel who has delivered me from all harm"). Manoah, as recorded at Judges 13, also saw an angel and yet exclaimed in verse 22 "We are doomed to die...We have seen God". Back in Genesis 18, Abraham is having a discussion with one of the three angels that came to him, after two of them departed to Sodom, and refers to the remaining angel by the divine name.
You can buy all that, or simply accept short-term memory loss as the real reason. Sometimes, I'm tempted to do that - it makes such things seem much clearer. -
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Genesis Chapter 34
by rocketman inwhether you think the bible is the word of god or not, one thing is pretty clear: it relates some disturbing stories.
some of those stories can even be termed as sordid.
genesis 34 contains an account of moral degradation that is almost unrivaled (though the story contained in genesis 38 comes close, and judges 19 probably exceeds it) in terms of moral perfidy.. genesis 34 relates the account of the sexual violation of jacob's daughter dinah, followed by the shocking overreaction by her brothers.
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rocketman
Gumby, I agree - The WTS uses this story to admonish their youth againts "wordly" association. Yet they don't really delve into the details of the account, and use the part of it that suits their own purpose, which they frequently do with Biblical stories.
Meanwhile, Jacob is usually painted with a nice brush despite the fact that his actions (or lack thereof) are clearly questionable. When reading the account of Jacob's life, it becomes clear that he's a deceptive person who often seems to be bartering for advantage, something that his name Jacob and his God-given name Israel imply. Also, he's slow to trust God and seems to worship him only conditionally (Gen 28:20-22) until later in life. Yet these undesirable traits also make Jacob seem more real, more like a flawed human, which we all are. I think such stories would hit closer to home for jws if they weren't constantly looking at these characters with rose-colored glasses.
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Genesis Chapter 34
by rocketman inwhether you think the bible is the word of god or not, one thing is pretty clear: it relates some disturbing stories.
some of those stories can even be termed as sordid.
genesis 34 contains an account of moral degradation that is almost unrivaled (though the story contained in genesis 38 comes close, and judges 19 probably exceeds it) in terms of moral perfidy.. genesis 34 relates the account of the sexual violation of jacob's daughter dinah, followed by the shocking overreaction by her brothers.
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rocketman
Good points Leolaia. Looking at the story from the perspectives you presented helps explain some of the rather odd features of it. And yes, it's interesting that God is nowhere mentioned, even though He's mentioned in the last verse of chapter 23 (Jacob sets up an altar and calls is "El Elohe Israel") and in then in 35:1.
Looking at Genesis 49 from the point of view you present helps explain its seemingly uncanny accuracy in detailing not only the inheritences of Jacob's descendants but also their characteristics. For example "Benjamin is a ravenous wolf" (49:27) matches the events in Judges 19-21, and the description of Dan in 49:24 as a "serpent" matches the treachery of the Danites described in Judges 18:27. Even landocked Zebulun was close enough to the Mediterranean to "become a haven for ships" (49:13) and "feast on the abundance of the seas" (Deuteronomy 33:19). While Genesis 49 is of course widely considered prophetic, it's very interesting to look at it from another angle.
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Welcome !
by Simon inwelcome to the newest jehovah's witness discussion forum on the net.. please register so that you can post to the forum and turn this into a welcoming place for other brothers and sisters online
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rocketman
Hard to believe this thread is still making the rounds. A blast from the past, and 22 months since I last posted to it.
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**MUST READ** AlanF's email to Knocking.org
by sf inthis is a must-read that, hopefully, will stay an "active topic" for all seekers and lurkers, by bumping it to the top as often as possible.
alan wrote it in randys {dogpatch} thread regarding knocking.org documentary and in reply to the email mr. engardio sent to barbara anderson.
however, it is so vital a read that it indeed needs its own thread:.
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rocketman
Great stuff Alan!
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Genesis Chapter 34
by rocketman inwhether you think the bible is the word of god or not, one thing is pretty clear: it relates some disturbing stories.
some of those stories can even be termed as sordid.
genesis 34 contains an account of moral degradation that is almost unrivaled (though the story contained in genesis 38 comes close, and judges 19 probably exceeds it) in terms of moral perfidy.. genesis 34 relates the account of the sexual violation of jacob's daughter dinah, followed by the shocking overreaction by her brothers.
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rocketman
Whether you think the Bible is the word of God or not, one thing is pretty clear: it relates some disturbing stories. Some of those stories can even be termed as sordid. Genesis 34 contains an account of moral degradation that is almost unrivaled (though the story contained in Genesis 38 comes close, and Judges 19 probably exceeds it) in terms of moral perfidy.
Genesis 34 relates the account of the sexual violation of Jacob's daughter Dinah, followed by the shocking overreaction by her brothers. In order to understand it properly, one might first note events in Genesis 23. That chapter tells of the reunion of Jacob and Esau.
In verse 14 of Genesis 23, Jacob refuses his brother's invitation to travel under guard. Jacob here is apparently putting his trust in God's protection rather than Esau's sword-bearing men. But Jacob, whose actions are frequently laced with deception (Genesis 25:29-33; 27:22-24; 31:20) tells Esau "So let my lord go ahead of his servant...until I come to my lord in Seir."
Jacob apparently had no intention of going to Seir (located southeast of Canaan) and instead settled near the city of Shechem in Canaan. In doing so, he delayed his return to Bethel, never did go to Seir, and made a decision that may have set the stage for the events of chapter 34.
Jacob, though considered a righteous man, made an decision similar to that of Lot, who also decided to locate near a city with inhabitants of questionable character (Genesis 13:12). His daughter Dinah then "went to visit the women of the land". While she is often criticized for doing this in religious commentary, it should be remembered that as a young woman, she would naturally seek companionship among female peers. She had no such peers among her family, and they were now encamped far from the land of Paddan-Aram, where her only other relatives lived. Indeed, God's direction that Abraham and his descendants were to live in the land of Canaan brought unique challenges to the patriarchs and their kin.
From this point, chapter 34 prsents a cascade of sin, culminating in a heinous crime by two of Jacob's sons, Simeon and Levi. His other sons later took spoil from the slaughtered Canaanites, so they too would bear responsibility for making Jacob "a stench" to the inhabitants of the land. (vs 27-30).
All parties in this account were to blame to varying degrees for what had transpired. Shechem violated a young woman. Though he tried to make amends, he certainly was deserving of punishment. The other people in Shechem were perhaps guilty of greed (vs 23). The sons of Jacob did worse - besides murder and pillage, they were guilty of deceit (vs13) as well as guilty of using the sacred ceremony of circumcision with wicked intent (vss 14-17). Jacob, after making the questionable decision to move close to a Canaanite city, seemed to defer to his sons rather than assert is patriarchal authority. It was his sons who proposed the circumcision agreement, and they agreed (as part of their ruse) that the family of Jacob should intermarry with the Canaanites (vs 16). Jacob should have stopped things right then and there instead of allowing his sons to make a proposal that even on the surface was against what Jacob perceived as the will of God. Was it not Jacob who went to Paddan-Aram to find a wife rather than seek one from among the Canaanites, as his brother Esau had done? (Gen 28:1, 2).
People who read this account are often quick to blame Dinah, but as I see it, there's a heavy burden of blame to be shared by those around her.
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Watchtower Blotch of Alpha and Omega interpretation
by Ticker innow to cover a point of a different nature but one i feel very important, a point in which the society has deliberatly tried to gloss over in their manipulating of scripture.
we see in rev.
1:7,8 a mention of the alpha and omega, the one who is, who was, and who is to come.
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rocketman
The bulk of my last post, in fact, set forth some of the ways in which Revelation applied many other divine titles and descriptors to Christ in a binitarian fashion. Christ and his Father were clearly distinguished from each other in some ways, and blurred in other ways, with the application of the titles "First and the Last", "King of Kings and Lord of Lords", "Alpha and Omega", etc
What Leolaia states here is the major reason why debates about the relationship between God and Christ are never -ending. The Bible presents both possibilities - two distinct beings, and yet also a "blurred" presentation of the two. I think much the same can be said of the nature of the Holy Spirit - it's sometimes presented as non-personal, other times a person. The debates will never end. -
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The first time I've been "down" b/c of JWD...
by upside/down ini've had good and bad days since stumbing onto jwd... and i've learned more in my short time here than in the last 20 years as an "active" and true to the bone...dub.... but today (tonight) i'm really sad... the tone of almost every thread i read has gotten "ugly".... i love "spirited" discussion, but this is different.
it feels like forum anarchy.. is there no yielding anymore...?.
maybe it was just too much happened today... or solar flares or something... i don't know...don't care.... maybe my new found "love" for my country (not the blind patriotic crap) and life coupled with the obvious animosity toward this love by some...well just bums me out.
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rocketman
I'm sure I'll get over it... it's not a big deal... but it is the FIRST time I've ever gone to bed feeling this bad...not ;by what's going on in the world...but what's going on in my JWD "world".
If what is written here ever begins to make a person actually feel hurt or bad emotionally, then, in my opinion, it's time for that person to re-evaluate the place that a discussion board actually has in their personal life.
While this board can be important, is participating in emotionally-charged discussions so important that in the end, you actually have negative emotions, with all the negatives that such stress can bring? I'm sure many folks feel differently, but to me, if a person actually goes to bed feeling bad, these discussions have gone beyond their proper place or perspective.
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Ugh - a nice article about JW's
by TresHappy inhope no one has posted this...house by house, soul by soulgmu prof: 'cold calls' can help religions growby andrea useem.
special to the examiner.
published: wednesday, june 29, 2005 11:43 pm edt.
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rocketman
"Jehovah's Witnesses, however, take the concept of proselytization to its extreme and make door-to-door witnessing an ongoing requirement for all members".
An "ongoing requirement"....."extreme" indeed.