Posts by BackseatDevil

36

Would You Shun Your Own Son or Daughter For A Million Dollars for the rest of your life??

by Narcissistic Supply in

jw
friends

simply for the money..

BackseatDevil

@frankiespeakin Thanks. In all, the constant here is the best benefit for the child. Freedom thinking children with helecopter/needy parents create just as much damage as needy children with neglective parents, it seems. So I'm not really looking at it as 'shades of grey' as I am the best possible solution... not for me, but for the child, and the generations to come. But I guess it could be looked at as gradient shades.

There is something that's not mentioned. "Shunning" as it stands means avoidence out of disdain... rejecting someone because you despise them or what they stand for. That is different than excommunication which is a dismissal or removal from a private group. "Disfellowshipping" is presented as a mix between the two but the basic concept is "don't talk to them except in business or family matters". There is SUCH an inconsistancy about this. Some people take it to the "shun" level... others as simple "avoid talking to them". That inconsistancy is confusing to... everyone.

I don't think there are many people who would voluntarily shun their children just for money. That's just... absurd (opinion). What I was describing was on the basis of "disfellowshipping" or excommunication.

On a side note... I WISH my mother would shun me more. I would give ANYTHING to no hear any more phone calls of "encouragement" from her. She is, by far, one of the most unhealthiest influences in my adult life, and her insistance on NOT following her own religion's rules not only presents her faith as weak, but brings unneccessary negative energy into my very balanced world. And her arrogant lack of apology for invading and disrupting a decent spiritual balance I have going is shockingly disrespectful. So as a "child" in the scenario, I say YEAH TO SHUNNING!!

But as a human being, I have to say it's such a cultish element of pompous pride.

36

Would You Shun Your Own Son or Daughter For A Million Dollars for the rest of your life??

by Narcissistic Supply in

jw
friends

simply for the money..

BackseatDevil

For me, it depends on the child, their personality, their potential, and whether or not I am of benefit or not to them after a certain age. If the son or daughter were of toddler age, then no, that would be cruel unless I felt there were better parents to take care of them. If the child were high school age and super smart, I would say yes. I would use the money to pay for their education and their start up in life. If the child were a drunk junkie mess, then no. I would be putting my responsibility on that of society... I wouldn't be able to do that with a clear conscience.

In the scenario presented, I am of one generation, children are of the next. It is arrogantly presumptuous to assume that a child needs me in their life in order to succeed and make the world a better place for them, and the generation after them. There are tremendous resources out there beyond anything I could offer. I can accept that.

Would it be emotionally difficult? Hell yes. But the nature of the child and how they function is not included in this question... and when it comes to children, what they need based off how they function is way more important that what we want.

That's just me.

38

You Found Out You're In A Cult Of Lies, What Are Your Options Do I Stay In Or Do I Leave?

by frankiespeakin in

that is a question only you can answer.

there is no right or wrong answers unless you are steeped in black and white thinking.. some choose to stay in for family reasons, some are so heated up over being decieved they can't give them another minute of time or labor.

meeting are a tedious and tremendous bore once you see the man behind the curtain(wizzard of oz).

BackseatDevil

@frankiespeakin I think (and this is very much just a personal opinion) you are bringing up a LOT of different issues to a very simplistic problem (see my earlier comment on 'complicating as needed') . Not a bad things to do... because this can be a complex subject.

Whether use of deception is common or rare has no relevance to me. Who I am as a human being traveling on this earth being at peace with myself and the universe isn't going to be coerced into one direction or the other just because it's common and understandable. At that "eye for and eye" point (this is JUST me personally) life becomes a series of justifications rather than a strong integral structure of who I am as a person.

Your extreme example ("ticking time bomb" situation where the woman is on her deathbed) is actually a good one. (I would have gone with a "does my ass look fat in these pants" scenario, but we will work with the deathbed thing LOL.) Who is this woman, what does she want to hear, and what is her mental capability at the time (I mean, she IS dying... and as a person who has gone through this a few times with loved ones... their mentality can VERY fragile or VERY strong)? Using these answers I (personally) still would not lie to her. But i wouldn't be my normal "ass" either. I would say something simple like "I don't think he is going to make it here... are you okay with that?" or "If something bad has happened to him, please rest assured I will take care of the details" or "I haven't talked with him in several hours. Are you prepared for the fact you might not see him before you go?"

(That last question is a bit insensitive, but you get the point).

"Pathological truth-telling" seems to be presented as synonymous with "tactless". You might be right on that. In many cases (observance here) people who spew out whatever is on their mind (regardless if it is truth or lies) have little if no concern for the environment around them and releasing whatever brain clog of an opinion is nothing more the a verbal method of tossing a drive-thru drink out the car window while driving down he road. It's just phonated litter, and I (opinion) find it arrogantly haughty at best. It distances people from each other.

I think (opinion still) the difference here is a detailed preoccupation with whether the information is "true" or a "lie" and what constitues "truth" and "lie" is being determined without factoring the emotional connectors into the equation. And in some cases... especially when lying to yourself... that can be one of the biggest oversights.

If presentation is at equal weight with content, then equal effort is made to both. For such, the route that is more truthful seems (in general) the path with the least problems on the end (typically). BUT that's not to say many Jews survived the Holocaust because a Gentile flat out lied to the SS on their behalf. The extremity you present does arrise. But trying to save the lives of others from a racist genocide isn't the same as 'I just found out I'm in a cult of lies, what should I do'? That sort of 'ticking time-bomb' scenario rarely exists. But when it does arise, I (personal opinion) think that the true nature of someone's consistant pattern instinctively takes over... even if that consistancy is inconsistancy.

If that makes sense.

9

The 7 Most Psychologically Damaging Sects ??

by Calebs Airplane in

so a few months ago, i was searching the internet for "exit counselors", and i came across an interesting article about the psychological affects of religious cults in general... i then started to take down some notes so i could go back and research later.... this morning, i was looking at those notes which included a top 7 list of the most psychologically damaging sects or cults (according to the opinion of certain people in this very limited field)... here's that list:.

jehovah's witnessesexclusive brethren (taylorites)scientologymooniesthe truth (cooneyites)amishmormonsnow i can't find where i got this information from but if anyone has any relevant or current information about this, please let me know.... thanks!.

ca.

BackseatDevil

I vast annoyance with the subject is noted on this thread:

http://www.jehovahs-witness.net/members/private/259345/1/Need-some-help

ANY group that reduces one's connectivity to the world around them and tunnel-visions perspective to appropriate placement of our personal "reality" in relation to the reality of the universe around us is dangerous, religious or otherwise. But that's just generally speaking. For people who cannot digest large amounts or who cannot process things well, I (guess) something like AA can help. To me it seems like kissing a scratch to make it feel better, you know?

Just... personal opinion though. I wish your friend the best of luck.

9

The 7 Most Psychologically Damaging Sects ??

by Calebs Airplane in

so a few months ago, i was searching the internet for "exit counselors", and i came across an interesting article about the psychological affects of religious cults in general... i then started to take down some notes so i could go back and research later.... this morning, i was looking at those notes which included a top 7 list of the most psychologically damaging sects or cults (according to the opinion of certain people in this very limited field)... here's that list:.

jehovah's witnessesexclusive brethren (taylorites)scientologymooniesthe truth (cooneyites)amishmormonsnow i can't find where i got this information from but if anyone has any relevant or current information about this, please let me know.... thanks!.

ca.

BackseatDevil

@MrFreeze I agree. Actually, I would put Family International as #1, Scientology as #2, Latter Day Saints as #3 by sheer order of their psychological and sociological impact. JWs and Amish/Mennonite a little lower because they are more seperatists... and end with PETA and Alcoholics Anonymous. LOL.

38

You Found Out You're In A Cult Of Lies, What Are Your Options Do I Stay In Or Do I Leave?

by frankiespeakin in

that is a question only you can answer.

there is no right or wrong answers unless you are steeped in black and white thinking.. some choose to stay in for family reasons, some are so heated up over being decieved they can't give them another minute of time or labor.

meeting are a tedious and tremendous bore once you see the man behind the curtain(wizzard of oz).

BackseatDevil

@ frankiespeakin "So I see nothing wrong in useing deceit, a skill that has its pitfalls, but is part of the human genetic inheritance and if used properly has its merits, unless one is limited in black and white thinking were something is catagorized as either right or wrong with no varying shades inbetween. A childish veiw of the world with limiting options, is the thought that all deceit is wrong."

On a more general scope, I do completely agree with this. There are several instances where deceit can be a helpful mechanism of ambulation. It might be noted that once one gets comfortable with that mechanism it eventally (mostly) leads to an "oh what a tangle web we weave" scenario. That's just a tendency, not some rule. Sporadically used in extreme cases (outside fight/flight/freeze situations) it can be helpful, I totllay understand that.

Black/white limitations is something the JWs base their lives on. Everything is either Jehovah or Satan. Once a person frees themselves of that the rich vivid color of everything in between and beyond can shine... and there is a lot to shine. Plus, there is so much to... just... LEARN, you know?

@Oubliette " In addition, you're an ass."

It is my opinion that is probably the most truthful thing you've written on this thread, because yes I am.

Just an opinion, though.

18

Why do the JW's Cover up child abuse?

by slam in

BackseatDevil

@jgnat "Shame. Whitewashed graves. Appearance is more important than reality."

I tend to agree with this pithy statement. They cannot be "illuminators" of the world if they are tarnished by... reality.

Not to be insensitive, but this is something that they do across the board... with everything. Child abuse is the most horrendous manifistation of this but the use of covering over reality to present objects brighter than what they appear is saturated in the religion from the way one dresses to experiences given from an assembly stage.

Plus, there is also this (and I'm not sure how to describe this) concept of progressive effect of diminishing sins (at least in my own child abuse case). The greater the effect on the religion as a whole and the more elders who know about the situation dynamically decreases the importance of the sin committed. In other words, the individual elders themselves are VERY concerned and sympathetic (although not empathetic), and a small group of elders will put the child first and foremost in their thoughts and concern. But as the case goes higher on the food chain, the more distant and institutionalized the elders become. By the time it reaches lawsuit status, Bethel, Inc. is involved and it's a virtual wall of preactical denial and avoidence. Initially though, it is very intimate and heartfelt.

Like I said, this is just something I noticed with me, and I saw this in a few other cases I have only read about, not personally observed.

38

You Found Out You're In A Cult Of Lies, What Are Your Options Do I Stay In Or Do I Leave?

by frankiespeakin in

that is a question only you can answer.

there is no right or wrong answers unless you are steeped in black and white thinking.. some choose to stay in for family reasons, some are so heated up over being decieved they can't give them another minute of time or labor.

meeting are a tedious and tremendous bore once you see the man behind the curtain(wizzard of oz).

BackseatDevil

@Oubliette As a Witness one is taught to have an answer first, then find "proof" in order to support it, I completely understand where the idea of finding proof first and develping an answer based off that would be confusing to you.

It's okay. Many of us have been though this. I get it.

In review... I am not judging, simply calling you're (metaphor of an) abusive relationship what it is. You think you are the exception and that's okay too... EVERYONE always thinks they are the exception. It's a very typical part of all this (maybe you are, who knows?). But please understand that me pointing to something and saying "I have seen this many times, this is what this is" is NOT the same as passing judgement. In fact, it's the exact opposite... it's empathetic and understanding. So in this case, defensiveness toward someone who is just pointing out sociological patterns isn't necessarily helping your case here.

Simply put, it is what it is. Nothing more.

**SIDE NOTE: pinion would be "I think you are a bad person for staying in that wacked out church" or "I don't believe you". In my previous comment, I stated a very typical observance: Presentation of something in order to deceive (whatever the reason) is lying. One may not look at it that way, and through justification may come up with a reason for not calling it "lying" but by pure definition it is deception. One can use a variety of semantics and idioms to change the color of picture (another JW technique) but I was just presenting the bare bone honesty of the situation, stripped of the fluff. It's not even specific to this ONE instance... it's gneral application to a very repetative human behavioral pattern.

Observance is not always opinion, and there is no judgement call on my observances.

My actual opinion is quite harsh and douchey to the point of arrogance. So I work hard to keep it to just the "knowns" based off what is presented and leave opinions, projection, and the dramatic out of it. If you want my opinion, I will share it... but (1) in one's development as a human being traveling on this globe it would do WAY more harm than good and (2) it will probably get me banned from the site.

EDIT: me writing " you're not really advancing the journey of life iside your heart or increasing connectivity to the world around you." is assumption and could be interpreted (the way it is written) as opinion, but unless you're a Wall St. broker the probability of this being correct is very high. It's still assumptive however. I will apologize for that.

38

You Found Out You're In A Cult Of Lies, What Are Your Options Do I Stay In Or Do I Leave?

by frankiespeakin in

that is a question only you can answer.

there is no right or wrong answers unless you are steeped in black and white thinking.. some choose to stay in for family reasons, some are so heated up over being decieved they can't give them another minute of time or labor.

meeting are a tedious and tremendous bore once you see the man behind the curtain(wizzard of oz).

BackseatDevil

@Oubliette (This is going to come out WAY wrong and agressive, but I honestly assure you... it is not meant to be such).

However you describe it, you're still a liar. The justification of whether you lie to the Witnesses, lie to yourself, or lie to the world around you is that it's okay to lie to the greater of evils - it's okay to lie to the liar. And yeah, that's true, I suppose... but you're still lying, which makes you no better than them. The act in itself makes puts you in the same catagory as the Witnesses, so in the grander scheme, you're not really advancing the journey of life iside your heart or increasing connectivity to the world around you.

It's understandable, but everything you are holding on to is internalized and self consuming. You may have shifted lies away from what the Witnesses teach to lying to the Witnessees themselves... or lying to yourself while making yourself some sort of makeshift martyr. Whatever you choose is your choice. We can't judge you for it and I personally will not condemn anyone for staying in (I was about to do it for years myself). But I think our point (at least my point) is that it's better not to lie at all. It frees you up to do everything else on the planet... and there is A LOT to do on this planet... without having the unnecessary weight of trying to justify what you do, when you do it, how you do it, and why you did it.

Instead, it's better to just... DO. Live. Learn. Love. Lies only cloud the purity of the beauty that is around us, moves through us, and works within us. If that is not important to you, then to hell with everyone commenting on this thread. If it is important to you, then FYI: it's self defeating to stay with that abusive husband, become addicted to the drama, and justify that black eye to others while not socially participating in activities to the fullest. It's just how it goes, a natural pattern of life. Nothing more.

38

You Found Out You're In A Cult Of Lies, What Are Your Options Do I Stay In Or Do I Leave?

by frankiespeakin in

that is a question only you can answer.

there is no right or wrong answers unless you are steeped in black and white thinking.. some choose to stay in for family reasons, some are so heated up over being decieved they can't give them another minute of time or labor.

meeting are a tedious and tremendous bore once you see the man behind the curtain(wizzard of oz).

BackseatDevil

Good for you @HowTheBibleWasInvented. You stay with that abusive husband. It would certainly be WAY more drama than leaving... I mean, with the kids and all. Plus, you are right... YOU CAN CHANGE HIM.

And if you have to overly justify yourself to people, well what do they know? They are just people on the outside who don't get you, your situation, or your needs. SCREW THEM. You know what's best for you.