Im here because I was thrown out of another x JW site and felt I needed the connection to others with the same JW background. IM also here because my own board is oh so quiet.
Seraphim23
JoinedPosts by Seraphim23
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Are you a new viewer of this forum?
by punkofnice ini'd be interested to hear from you.. i know at first there is the paranoia that the elders will find you out if you have a user id here.
i only believe this is the case if you leave your pc in plain sight unattended, give out your password, tell someone what you are 'researching'or give your real name and location in a thread or gravatar.. cut to the chase.. what brought you here?.
anyone here because of the new 'generation' 'new light'?.
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If there is such a thing as ORIGINAL SIN what does that do to "morality"?
by Terry in"it is the concept of original sin that negates morality.. if man is guilty by nature, he has no choice about it.. if he has no choice, the issue does not belong in the field of morality.
morality pertains only to the sphere of man's free will -- only to those actions which are open to his choice.. to consider man guilty by nature is a contradiction in terms.".
augustine had the mistaken view that many metaphysicians had at that time: all humans were "nested" inside of adam like those russian dolls that fit inside each other.
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Seraphim23
I think you are correct about original sin. Of course there is also the biblical idea that `through one man sin entered the world`. Sin really means breaking the law which is a clue as to what Paul is talking about. There is a more philosophical (Greek) question about human nature and good and evil that Christianity tangled up with the Jewish (legal) viewpoint. This is why Christianity and to some extent Judaism mixes up similar yet different questions which causes a lot of confusion; sin and evil being one of them. They are two questions with different paradigm frameworks that clash because of this. Christianity is a mix of both paradigms on many issues. Much work needs to be done to clarify and straighten out legal right and wrong questions with philosophical questions about good and evil, human nature and the nature of the universe in terms of if it has a purpose. Deep stuff! Gnosticism was an attempt at this but was rejected by the disciples of Jesus for interesting reasons but that’s a rabbit for another time.
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After the cult how many reject faith in anything?
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Seraphim23
Satanus sent a reply via pm
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After the cult how many reject faith in anything?
by Seraphim23 in[if gte mso 9]><xml> <o:officedocumentsettings> <o:relyonvml /> <o:allowpng /> </o:officedocumentsettings> </xml><![endif].
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Seraphim23
Just got your PM. Thanks for letting me know how to access it. Still getting used to way this board works. It’s the morning here and I’m working but Ill reply in a PM a response to you a little later. Was a very interesting PM by the way.
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After the cult how many reject faith in anything?
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Seraphim23
OnTheWayOut, thank you for being so candid with your reply, because it takes bravery to be open about intimate and personal experiences such at yours. Sounds like a very heavy experience and I agree that your assessment of what happened on reflection could well be the correct one. Certainly some experiences can be taken for revelatory experiences and assigned to God or simply the supernatural when they are not, and can be explained in conventional ways. I think there are other kinds of experience that would more unarguably be explained metaphysically of course. I am very glad you came through all that.
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After the cult how many reject faith in anything?
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Seraphim23
I’m just adding this here as I edited it into my last post sometime after I posted it, and it might have been missed as a result. I ran out of posts which is why.
LouBelle. I had an interesting thought about the suffering in the world a while ago. It is a bit hard to convey as it’s a subtle point but I’ll try.
The thought is that the total amount of suffering in the world and all of history amounts to a single life with a maximum of a few years suffering and then death. In fact the worse the suffering, the quicker the end, so a sort of equilibrium limits the suffering to a certain point. As humans we tend to multiply the amount of suffering by each individual who suffers or lives. For example, if a disaster happens in a faraway place and gets reported on the TV, we gage it by how many die or get injured and total it up to compare with other disasters for reference. So in essence we say that one death due to an accident is mild or even negligible compared to an earthquake that might take out a million. We get more distressed about the million and not so about the one. Yet no one has a compellingly rational objection to a natural death of old age at the end of a life span, even though a death is a death. No one talks about the seven billions deaths of the whole of present humanity that will die in the next 90 or 100 years. The thing is though, that no one person can ever experience two deaths. Suffering can only be measured by the one experiencing it, not the two who don’t. So all suffering in history really amounts to one single life and death because no one can experience another’s death. Sure some lives are worse than others, but nevertheless, one life and death no matter how bad is as bad as a million deaths or even two or three, if you see what I mean. We objectify death and suffering, but it is never objective it is subjective and experienced subjectively.
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After the cult how many reject faith in anything?
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Seraphim23
Good comment Fernando.
OnTheWayOut would it be a personal question to ask what your revelatory experience consisted of?
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After the cult how many reject faith in anything?
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Seraphim23
I love these comments from both sides of the equation. Perhaps God is the equation ??? lol
Anyhow regarding the problem of evil, a quick comment on its complexity because it has a few categories. There is human evil which covers a lot in its own right, but there is also natural evil that is relevant to belief in a God. Natural evil could include human evil but is often separated for convenience. Natural evil apart from human evil is to do with things like earthquakes, animal savagery, natural disasters including those originating from outside the earth itself, like meteorite strikes that injure or potentially wipe people and life off the map. How could a God figure into this is the question of course?
Another subset of the problem of evil includes biblical interpretation of the character of God and how to approach the bible itself in the first place. Does it say anything true about God at all? And if not does that mean a God doesn’t exist? If it does have some things right about God to what extent and how does that work? Of course at this stage we are in the realm of theology and that strays into the domain of the metaphysical and that depends of course on the question of supernatural forces being true or not which brings in the limits of science question. One subject always goes into another but this is a subset of the problem of evil fortunately and not the main categories of the subject.
The interesting question to me is what is evil anyway? Evil seems to be relevant only where intelligent beings are concerned who can conceptualise it. If there were no life in the universe would evil still exist? Well the forces we associate with evil certainly should. If one galaxy crashes into another is doesn’t complain, indeed no one even cares, but if it had a mind it probably would. Good and evil seem to be in nature merely the forces of chaos and entropy/decay and order creation and the two are intimately interlinked things of course. The word evil gets used when these forces affect living beings. However evil is more than a word because when animals are affected by these forces as we are, they don’t call it evil or even think objectively about it in abstract terms, but they resist it and the pain nonetheless. So in a more primitive sense it is evil to them as well.
Does it matter though? Does it matter if all life gets destroyed by natural forces as seems destined to happen to all life in the end? Well, as a rock doesn’t care about being pulverised but a cat does, I guess then it would matter to life if life is wiped out. So evil exists as long as living beings exists, although the forces are the same whether life is here or not. So evil is a property of consciousness really.
This if true is interesting because natural forces aside, one human can decide to do bad to another, independent of natural forces of chaos and order. This is also called evil but evil from intent, which is associated not with rocks, order or chaos but living consciousness. God if he exists apparently has intent also. (I do believe in God) In a universe governed by two main forces associated with good and evil, can any intent that produces an action introduced into that system, result in anything other than good or bad? Perhaps good and bad have to exist for freedom to exist. Else no creative forces, no evolution, no free will?
This was a quick outline of the issues and problem the way I see it, with a few ideas throw in.
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Are we all missing the true 'MARK' of the Wild Beast?
by Newly Enlightened indisclaimer: hubby & i have been watching a 5 dvd documentary on the 'secret's of the founding father's' we're not sure if we believe everything they talk about but here is some interesting things to think about..... revelation mentions that the 'mark' would either be on the forehead, [for everyone to see] or, on the right hand [if you make a fist, it is hidden] rev also says that no one can buy or sell without this mark.
the wtbt$ isn't too clear on what they believe that mark is, so.... what is one thing that we cannot buy or sell without?.
money!.
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Seraphim23
I think Muslims do think Christ is a prophet but only a prophet. Of course the word prophet is misunderstood somewhat these days because anyone who spreads Gods message is considered a prophet, particularly when it goes against the priestly class/religious establishment. I’m not sure about the origins or Arabs but they are a diverse group and the word Arab has a few competing theories as to where it comes from originally. Plus there are differing definitions or the religious Arab identity and the racial identity. There were Arab Christians before the advent of Islam as well as Jewish Arabs who had converted to Judaism. There are such a big complicated group than defined definitions are probably impossible.
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After the cult how many reject faith in anything?
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Seraphim23
Ldrnomo, I think the word faith often lacks definition in the way people talk about it, which is a problem.