Posts by Seraphim23

108

Infinity and god - why wait to create the universe?

by Simon in

here's the problem with infinity ... we can't comprehend it.. it's bad enough when it's space, but when it's time as well and then we throw in some all powerful creature supposedly existing forever ... well, it just doesn't make sense and raises questions.. such as why wait?

why didn't god create the universe the day before he did?

or the day before that?

Seraphim23

Actually I think we can comprehend infinity, which is why we scratch our heads when logical contradictions like something from nothing gets postulated as being a viable/comprehensible view, as is being done here. Infinity is comprehensible but the non-comprehensible part comes in when one tries to press the finite with the infinite. It’s like oil and water, the two don’t mix which is what happens with physics which normally deals with finite things. Put these two together then, and only then, does compressibility go out of the window.

Quantum foam or whatever else it gets called still exists even if you take time away, which leaves you with no explanation for why there should be quantum foam of which the universe arose from before time began. Why and how does quantum foam cause time to begin? To say there is no answer is the same as saying there is an infinite God. To say we don’t yet know is the same as a theist saying God exists in a way we don’t yet know.

Both atheists and theists have a problem here because logic has literally run out, yet valid questions remain and they really are valid. With a theist it is how can we be here at all when God must still be waiting to create us because infinity is forever. It would take forever to get to this point in time. With the atheist it is calling something science that goes way beyond anything even remotely comprehensible or logical, as with saying nothing or a quantum form requires no explanation and then it can start time through some occurrence that must have happened before time. All this just to avoid the something from nothing paradox, however is it really word games to avoid the fact that atheists are at this point forced to do what they criticise theists for doing, namely using magic to get something poofing out of nothing. Both camps are in trouble with logic here which leaves what? A logical contradiction just like infinity does when it gets forced up against feeble human attempts to explain all things. Even though I am a theist I don’t hold with fundamentalists of the theist or atheist persuasion. Logic and reason fails you both ultimately and infinity looks at you and laughs.

58

What do you think happens when we die?

by cognac in

jw
friends

i'm trying to figure it out.

if we are just dead then there is no point to anything i do.

i'd like to hope our energy goes somewhere... but, i'd like to examine what somebody presents as proof....

Seraphim23

I’m not sure that necessarily is the case cofty because I also do not remember being in the womb or being a baby, but I did have consciousness apparently. The only different is that I don’t remember it. So it is possible that consciousness exists during general anaesthetic but memory of it doesn’t work. Consciousness and memory are not always synonymous with one another apparently.

58

What do you think happens when we die?

by cognac in

jw
friends

i'm trying to figure it out.

if we are just dead then there is no point to anything i do.

i'd like to hope our energy goes somewhere... but, i'd like to examine what somebody presents as proof....

Seraphim23

Interesting comment DATA-DOG because from what I have studied regarding NDEs there does seem to be a correlation between culture and what is experienced, although interestingly the pattern is the same. It’s the tunnel of light in the west as the beginning theme most often but in other places it is a boat crossing a river and so on. It suggests that a belief structure influences the iconography to some extent. Of course it has to be said that this doesn’t provide the support it might seem to that such experiences are of the dying physical brain, due to accurate information cleaned from such experiences that could not be accounted for using the normal physical senses suggesting non local senses of some kind the physical body doesn’t have. In some ways it reminds me of the verse about Jesus:

Mark 6:5

“And because of their unbelief, he couldn't do any miracles among them except to place his hands on a few sick people and heal them.”

So even here there seems to be a link between perception and outcome. We know that what we see with the physical senses is influenced by what we expect to see, to a limited degree anyhow and with the quantum world as you mentioned, observing seems to change the behaviour of photons without any known or detectable forces between the observers sensing equipment and the photons. Obviously to any reasonable person there is much more to reality than meets the eye, if you forgive the pun.

58

What do you think happens when we die?

by cognac in

jw
friends

i'm trying to figure it out.

if we are just dead then there is no point to anything i do.

i'd like to hope our energy goes somewhere... but, i'd like to examine what somebody presents as proof....

Seraphim23

You can have the prize if you can explain how emergent behaviour works or the processes of particle interaction causes consciousness. If not the onus is just as much on those with your position to make your case, particularly in the eyes of those who have experienced interesting phenomena of the kind I touched on before. I did wonder how long it would take you to respond to me. Looks like I was right in thinking almost instantly. However this post was directed to cognac so he can consider this view and of course yours also.

58

What do you think happens when we die?

by cognac in

jw
friends

i'm trying to figure it out.

if we are just dead then there is no point to anything i do.

i'd like to hope our energy goes somewhere... but, i'd like to examine what somebody presents as proof....

Seraphim23

I think the answer to the question of this thread lies in consciousness. A deep analysis of the subject is always good because otherwise one can get side-lined into thinking that so called emergent behaviour explains consciousness away, when it doesn’t. I’m really talking about the contrast between two fundamental positions regarding existence which are materialism and dualism. There are many forms of these basic positions but I won’t bore anyone with those. Materialism basically says that all things are composed of material and all phenomena, including consciousness, are the result of material interactions. Dualism holds to the belief that there are two elements of existence which are the Physical and Spiritual. There are other views but they always seem to lead back to these two basic positions in one way or another.

If consciousness is real and cannot be reduced to a mere process, then this itself is evidence that there is more to existence than mere matter and so there are more things in heaven and earth, so to speak. Of course the arguments for and against these positions are tedious to say the least, but I would submit that there are few things that require less proof of being real than consciousness does in order to be excepted as real.

So if we get to the place of being able to accept the reality of consciousness, which is a no brainer in my view, it leads one to the conclusion that more things are existing than this universe, explained in terms of physical/scientific terms, which opens up the possibility of life after death is some way; life in this case being defined as continuing consciousness.

If this is the case we would expect to see or experience evidence in the universe of non-scientifically explainable phenomena, or to put it another way, phenomena not reducible to particle interaction. Being more specific we would see things like ghosts or hear of such from credible people. There would be other forms of ESP also, probably it would often be associated with people’s deaths in some ways, that don’t make sense in the normal way, and we see this in a great variety of ways also. Near death experiences are a case in point and sometimes people who have no brain function report, after resuscitation, real world information not always local to their bodies’ physical location which gets verified.

If all this is true, which I think it is, it means what we do here has relevance to the next life because one affects the other.

33

The world WILL end, but not for religious reasons...

by Monsieur in

i've been watching a very interesting documentary regarding the state of planet earth.. in a nutshell, (scientifically/physically/factualy) earth is experiencing 'pressure' that points to one inevitable result, to correct itself (or more specifically, to correct the effects of the present human cause, in ex- pollution, global warming, resource depletion etc.)..

the last time earth 'corrected' itself, there was mass extinction.

for proof, check out the dinosaur fossil record (unless they are a hoax.).

Seraphim23

All life has always been next to extinction. It doesn’t matter if one categorises it in terms of time scales, species, accidents, carelessness, nature, intention, life span or anything else. All things come to dust eventually. In any closed system energy eventually runs out as it will in the universe. However a closed system doesn’t have to be the only system……

13

Long life spans in the Genesis Account: So where are we with this?

by Black Man in

so (according to the bible) methuselah lived to be 969, noah 950, jared 962 and so on and so on.

did they simply count years differently back then?

what accounted for the long life spans in bible times?

Seraphim23

It was probably a way to show the symbolism of the story.

53

For Those who believe the Bible is truly the word of God

by sosoconfused in

what exactly is the reason?.

i am not an athiest or agnostic... i definately believe in god.

however i would honestly like to hear others explain to me why they believe the bible is truly the word of god.. .

Seraphim23

It is more accurate to say that the evidence the shroud offers does not convince you that it is Jesus. Fair enough, however I don’t think the evidence showing it is a hoax is convincing enough when compared to the evidence that it isn’t a hoax. It convinces me.

53

For Those who believe the Bible is truly the word of God

by sosoconfused in

what exactly is the reason?.

i am not an athiest or agnostic... i definately believe in god.

however i would honestly like to hear others explain to me why they believe the bible is truly the word of god.. .

Seraphim23

I’m a Christian and all that but I have a problem with the circular reasoning as well. It’s not good enough to say that the bible is the word because the bible says it is. At a minimum there must be some independent and objective evidence to back up such a position as well. If this is not done I could say for example that I was God and offer proof by virtue of writing it down on a piece of paper with the words `I am God` and `this piece of paper in infallible.` Obviously such a fallacious position could be applied to anything anyone wanted it to. Thus faith must be based in evidence for it to have value and any claim in truth. As a general principle truth should not contradict truth.

I often hear fellow Christians say that they `don’t listen to the words of men`, without connecting this point of view to the fact the bible was written by men, and also complied and translated and so on by men. Even the interpretation is by men. So do I as a Christian think the bible is the word of God? No not really, I think it is A word of God as opposed to THE word of God. I think there are other words of God as well in different forms all over the place. However this raises an issue or two, namely how much is true and how much of holy books are true and what happens when two belief systems disagree with one another when based on different holy books, or even the same holy book?

The way I see it, God communicates in many places so I think the bible has some truth in it and possibly more than in some other places due to the nature of the written material being about God and Jesus. I see God as a force for uplift, so where there is ignorance given the context of the big picture, there will be less so as a result of Gods invisible interaction if acted on. I also see God as a sentient being who doesn’t force his hand with people, so will not force people to believe who do not want to. I think he works with people where they are, even if they are not aware of it. So the bible will have political rhetoric, errors, and prejudices and so on in it, but will also have a spirit inside that resists and counteracts those things. So a bad person will get bad out of it, and a good person will get good out of it. I think there are elements of this in other holy books also.

I think the Jews were chosen to have Jesus because they needed a spiritual doctor more than others on the planet at that time. The reason I think Jesus is true is because of the evidence that he existed from Roman and Jewish historical sources and for his supernatural claims the Turin shroud lends evidence. The New Testament of the bible of course doesn’t contradict this despite the fact its record is not perfect but good enough to see a picture in my view.

18

How can one understand unusual personal experiences such as when going from door-to-door?

by Fernando in

given that i know how corrupt, dishonest and evil the watchtower is, i have wondered how to understand a personal experience i had many years ago - long before walking out mid-2009.. after an unusual series of many "co-incidences" on a particular sunday, my friend and i ended up at the door of someone who had been praying to god for someone to be sent to him, and who was expecting us.. i am still convinced it was by divine intervention, but cannot understand why a prayer is answered by sending representatives of an apostate organisation.. also when taking up residence in a foreign country, under very difficult circumstances, i twice ended up "inadvertently" moving in to homes just around the corner from the kh.

on one occasion it was about a 15 metre walk from my front door right into my seat in the kh!.

have you had similar experiences?.

Seraphim23

There is no doubt in my mind, even with a heavy dose of critical thinking that the mysterious does happen. In my study of this subject of such things happening to people of different faiths, one thing sticks out as being relevant more than anything else and it is belief. Not belief in the theological do`s and dont`s of any creed but mere belief that things can happen apart from the scientific paradigm. There is an interesting scripture regarding Jesus not being able to do many miracles due to the lack of belief of those in the particular place he was visiting, as if such miracles were not just done through Jesus but through something about those to whom it happened. It may help to explain why some never seem to experience anything along the mysterious lines because they don’t believe in anything.

So the question is of course, what or who is causing such things and why? People who come back from near death experiences sometimes say that if they asked which religion is the true one? that the answer was none of them are the true one. So one could reason that faith or mere belief in the impossible is the things that counts and allows for a connection to be made no matter who or what faith the person is in. The reason would be I guess that love unites but religions and much else separates. I could go on but the whole things is very interesting.