Well I’m not totally sure what you mean completely as there does seem to be some atheists who definitely seem to insist that there is no God. Anyhow I’m sure your view is as valid as any other.
Seraphim23
JoinedPosts by Seraphim23
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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I told my wife that she was in a cult...
by garyneal in...it is not the first time i did this but from time to time when i get frustrated i tend to say things i later regret, like this.. she went to the meeting this past sunday and apparently she heard a talk about watching her associations.
she told me that she was glad to have that talk because the message was timely for her.
you see, the saturday night prior she and my kids were at her sisters house and her sister and friends suggested that she hang out with them sometime.
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Seraphim23
“Yeah, if you're not FOR THE WT, you're against them…” Only a Sith Lord deals in absolutes!
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
Thanks for your patience bohm with answering my questions. I appreciate you know more than me on these matters. Bohm is a new character for me as it were.
I wasn’t suggesting that Penrose didn’t accept the wave function description, only that he thinks it collapses, or some other term in large scales stuff. Perhaps he doesn’t think this now, I’ll have to check. Bohm, He certainly seems like a genius. I need to look more into what he taught, said and did. Some of what I read so far sounds almost Buddhist, which is interesting as I have a big sympathy with Buddhist belief.Thanks for introducing me to another avenue of thought.
Out of interest and don’t take this the wrong way, as I am assuming you’re an atheist, but is their a framework in Bohms work that could explain so called psychic phenomena? I.e premonition’s of future states of information? I have often thought that such phenomenon, at least in my case, doesn’t exactly behave as one would expect if the source for such knowledge was a sentient being. It’s often like there is no game plan behind such insights although on occasion it is almost like there is, but more of a random spread of glimpses often guided by what I am interested in or focused on in a general level at the time. I hope this doesn’t sound bizarre, even though I’m sure it probably does.
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
Roger Penrose seems to have a different view as far I can tell. I take it there is disagreement in the interpretation of qm in that he thinks the wave function does collapse in that something happens when a quantum events effect become magnified from the microscopic to the macroscopic? I have to be honest that I have an issue with something existing as a probability. To say something has a probability makes sense to me but to say that something is a probability doesn’t, despite the experiments that show this is the case. I may be wrong of course but do other experts in this field share this concern?
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
I think I slightly get what you are saying and I do have my own cat. I’m glad she is ok LOL
If the abstraction isn’t there then it must be in the human scale world, is that the case? Like the idea perhaps that what we perceive is an illusion? Help me out; I’m trying to maintain the mysteriousness of life!
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
You are talking above my pay grade here. Are you saying that the cat is both dead and alive at the same time but then something happens to keep it in one state or the other?
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
Thanks rawe I look forward to chatting more about these things to you. Have a great day at work if any can these days.
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
bohm, Probabilities break down into actual outcome don’t they in the real world we inhabit? Things don’t actually exist as probabilities on the large scale do they? What about Schrödinger's cat being alive and dead?
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
paranoia agent I personally don’t believe in original sin because of evolution being true, but I do see the need for a salvation of sorts, and there are many better ways to understand Christ’s sacrifice that a simplistic blood exchange for guilt despite Pauls use of that concept. I won’t get into that however but I will say that I don’t think the bible is even necessary for so called salvation, or that one has to know about Jesus for this salvation. If the bible was wrong in everything it wouldn’t matter to me. Why one God instead of many? Well there is something about the number one that is fundamentally and philosophically important. After all you have many brain cells, but there is only one you. Why is that?
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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Seraphim23
That was an excellent comment rawe if you don’t mind me saying so. I don’t know if you would be surprised or not but I agree with you completely that the subject of quantum mechanics is not loose at all. I’m not ofay with the equations either I have to say, but I agree with you that they work. Roger Penrose, a mathematician who I greatly respect has said that quantum mechanical equations are complexly computable and give any desired degree of precision to describe how the quantum state changes over time.
That said I am forced to clarify what I meant when I said that scientists don’t understand how quantum mechanics works. They understand how to use equations to get the desired results in predicting quantum systems, which are accurate, but it is to do with probabilities and where probabilities exist complete understating is lacking. Probabilities would not have to be taken into account if it was known exactly what was going on. On top of this issue is the issue that the equations used to work out how a quantum system will change over time, assume that all the things that might happen in terms of probabilities actually happen together, existing is some strange superposition which is a view that runs directly counter to common sense. On the other hand classical physics, which deals with relatively large scale phenomena, which includes the level that we can directly perceive, argues that although there is the possibility of many things happening; only one thing actually happens. This view ties in with common sense and common experience as well as cognition itself.
In other words there is a gap in understanding between the two theories that currently explains how the universe works, as they contradict each other both logically and in common sense. Although the equations in quantum theory work, they do so at a great price, because if applied to everyday objects it would mean that one object could be in two or more places at the same time. A snooker ball when hit would go into all the pockets on the board. On the quantum level the equations work because they assume this really does happen at that level but this is view that common sense tells us is impossible.
As you probably already know there is more to it than this, because the concepts of waves and particles come into this area. However this doesn’t help solve the issues in a way that makes any more sense because the idea of waves and particles are incompatible with each other in this area. So this is what I mean when I say that scientists don’t understand, in the sense of true cognition, what really is going on with quantum theory, unless things really do work in a way tradition says is literally impossible. It is amazing that the equations work considering this is how they work. Does this mean the imposable is possible? Who knows, but the philosophical ramifications are many as regards science and how it is thought to work. For one, traditionally it is thought that accurate results equate to correct or more accurate understanding of something, but in this case the opposite seems to be true, unless the impossible is possible of course, which is a possibility one can be open minded to. Anyway thanks for an intelligent post rawe.
I also found your comment on Catholicism interesting as well. Constrained philosophy from Catholicism doesn’t surprise me. Organised religion tends to be a bit disingenuous with it. Also the JWs not giving an accurate picture about Catholicism and other faiths is not much of a surprise, but interesting none the less.