Posts by 1009

165

Board of bitterness

by 1009 in

i always was a critical jw, now df and agnost.

but still this religion fascinates me.

in my eyes most jw are very sincere, but dumb sheep.. this board is filled with ex-jw.

1009

TD

There is some cultural fluidity in what is considered moral conduct, but there is considerable unanimity on big things like wrongful death.

I think that observation is neither here nor there as far as JW's are concerned though. The leaders and policy makers in the JW faith operate very much within the Western Judeo-Christian framework and clearly recognize concepts from Jewish law like, 'bloodguilt'. I'm sure in your time spent as a JW, you heard that term many times. It's a broad term that includes any and all secondary and contributory causes of wrongful death.

If you hire someone to kill your spouse, you're just as bloodguilty as if you pulled the trigger yourself. If you fail to provide adequete safeguards for dangerous conditions like fall hazards, and someone falls to their death, you're still bloodguilty even though you didn't actually push them. If you fail to warn someone who's endangering their life out of ignorance, you're bloodguilty if they die. If you as a layperson give bad medical advice and someone dies as a result, you're bloodguilty.

Ethics is the formal language of moralilty and it actually has a lot to say when it comes to the life and health of other people. Even if all you're doing is writing a fluffy article in a trendy health magazine about the latest weight loss regimen, you still have to be very careful to say, "Always consult with your physician before starting any diet or exercise program." If you were to say, "Don't listen to your physician, listen to me instead" you will very likely wind up in jail. And that is the essence of what JW's have said about transfusion medicine for many years.

But abstaining from blood, is not a medical advice. They believe (I believed) it was a divine law. So they consider it (religiously) wrong to use blood, whereas you have no religious objections.

Adamah stated earlier: " The eisegesis in Acts rests upon a foundation of their far-greater misunderstanding of Genesis 9, which is based on a mistranslation which resulted from confusing a blessing with an obligation." Is it ethically wrong to misunderstand something? Is it ethically wrong to believe that what the Biblical commands on the subject of blood should be applied to the medical use as well? And if you believe that, is it ethically wrong to abstain from blood? And if you are a religious leader, is it ethically wrong to teach what you believe?

Jehovah's Witnesses teach strict obedience without compromise. They are expected to die fairly horrible deaths rather than buy a political party card, salute a flag, etc. Peer pressure hardly compares to a concentration campe does it?

Strict obedience, yes. But to who? The JW who doesn't buy a political party card: is that because they don't want to disappoint the the GB? The average JW probably doesn't even know their names. When they don't salute the flag: is that because they are afraid of the elders? Maybe in some cases, especially the ones who have some doubts. But they will not stand firm for long. The individual JW will endure hard times because of the conviction that it is God's will.

40

Former Longtime Elder : Contributions

by James Jackson in

jw
friends

for a year now, i have been handling the accounts.

we have 6 elders and 7 ms, and none of them ( i am not serving), want to do the accounts, so they asked me to do it.

here is what i have noticed.. 4 elderly sisters cover the whole congregation in donations monthly!

1009

For a year now, I have been handling the Accounts. We have 6 Elders and 7 MS, and none of them ( I am not Serving), want to do the Accounts, so they asked me to do it. Here is what I have noticed.

They don't want this privilige??? Huh? What a nice attitude. What happened with the 'here am I, send me' attitude?

4 elderly sisters cover the whole congregation in donations monthly! We have 74 pubs. We take in $800-1000 a month (3 congregations share the expenses). Nobody uses cash, just checks, so I know.

Only 1 Elder is faithfully giving each month. 2 of them I have only seen give twice in a year. The other 3, NOTHING!!! Only 1 MS have I seen give a check, and it was a one time deal. The other 6, NOTHING!!! Is this just weird or what?

I used to transfer about $ 60 each month at the congregations bank account. Automatically, so I wouldn't forget it. And tax deductible ofcourse.

165

Board of bitterness

by 1009 in

i always was a critical jw, now df and agnost.

but still this religion fascinates me.

in my eyes most jw are very sincere, but dumb sheep.. this board is filled with ex-jw.

1009

Bungi Bill
By the way, 1009, thanks for starting this thread. While some have reacted angrily (and initially, you pressed a few of my buttons, too!), I think that you have demonstrated that we can discuss such matters without hurting each other!

Hi Bill,

Thank you. I learned the last days I should choose my words more carefully. I recognize now that my opening was too provocative. I'm sorry for that. I may have had a pretty good time as a JW, but a lot of visitors here have serious wounds. I should take that into consideration before posting.

165

Board of bitterness

by 1009 in

i always was a critical jw, now df and agnost.

but still this religion fascinates me.

in my eyes most jw are very sincere, but dumb sheep.. this board is filled with ex-jw.

1009

TD
Ethics 101: Manipulate someone into doing something morally wrong regardless of whether it be through inducement or coercion and you are guilty too. Their agency does not diminish your responsibilitly one whit.

A hallmark of JW's and kindred groups is a rules based system of ethics and a resultant fascile grasp of personal responsibility. Are you sure you've truly left this group mentally?

Hi TD,

But moral is fluid. What you consider morally wrong, is morally right in another culture. Who finally defines what is right or wrong? In our society moral is more or less defined by what the mayority prefers. Mostly influinced by (inter alia) history and the example of charismatic leaders. The WTG point for their system of ethics to their understanding of the Bible. And because people have the right of freedom, they can. And JW submit themselves to that system. Now, you should consider that the leaders are subject to peer pressure, maybe even more than regular JW because of their prominent position. So the leaders will on their turn submit themselves to the group. Probably not in every aspect, because they most show some leadership. But the changes they introduce, will hardly cause any uproar.

So practically: the GB cannot change the blood doctrine. Any GB member that will try to change the doctrine, will be removed and replaced by a member that does reflect the historical system of ethics that the group as a whole excepts. So, sure, they are guilty according to your moral. But they are trapped too.

adamah
I can point out MANY examples of ex-JWs who say they would THANK the elders for DFing them, as it ultimately allowed them to cut the umbilical cord wrapped around their neck which kept them from breathing on their own, and allowed them to free their minds from the cult (partly via participation in discussion forums such as this). Some would look back and say it was the best thing that ever happened, since it taught them a valuable life lesson ("that which doesn't kill us makes us stronger").

There's an old adage from customer service that customers who are unhappy with some service will complain loudly to ten others, whereas the larger silent minority of 'satisfied customers' won't talk about their happy experience to only one or two; it's an asymmetrical response, since it's human nature that people like to complain more than praise. So that's going to bias the appearance of ANY forum, since those who want/need to vent will speak out moreso than the others (like 1099). [..]

The problem though, is that a 'religion' is comprised of people who share a certain flawed BELIEF. You cannot punish a CONCEPT, but only the individuals who ACT on that flawed belief. So the key is individuals must accept their responsibility for the harm inflicted as a result of their PARTICIPATION in an organization that shares the belief, EVEN IF they weren't directly involved in the incident.

Few are willing to do the mental work required to see that level of shared responsibility, since they're paradoxically morally-handicapped by accepting that ALL morality comes from God, and He cannot do ANY wrong. It's simply an excuse to get away with harming others, and blaming it on their loyalty to God.

The appeal for action is based on the ULTIMATE appeal to authority ever devised (an appeal to God's authority, ie "God wants me to do X, so I will"), and the BLAME for any resultant harm is ALSO put on God's shoulders ("I was only doing God's Will"). It's that TOTAL externalization that makes religion so ripe for manipulating others, since the one who TELLS YOU what God wants is able to control the followers as if they're marionettes.

hi adamah,

Thank you. That's nicely worded. I agree with every word you said.

165

Board of bitterness

by 1009 in

i always was a critical jw, now df and agnost.

but still this religion fascinates me.

in my eyes most jw are very sincere, but dumb sheep.. this board is filled with ex-jw.

1009

TD
This was the original argument against transfusion. (i.e. That it nourished the body like food) When that argument failed, JW's had a clear choice to either retract it and admit they were wrong and didn't really understand what a blood transfusion was for OR continue to teach the doctrine using less than honest means. They chose the latter.

1009, if you're still reading, there is nothing bitter about pointing this out.

Hi TD,

Still reading, not much time to respond though. Indeed, I didn't note any bitterness in your post.

Miss.Fit
1009 - It must be hard to understand when you dont share the same experiences. Keep an open mind. The more you read the more you will see how similar these experiences are.

Except for the lying, two faced Elder dad who molested my sisters and beat us at home, I'm ?sure the JWs are nice an d loving. What did you get dfd for? Do you think it was worse than what he did? Does that seem fair?

Hi Miss.Fit,

Thank you. I read and learn. What a terrible dad you had. I left me wife and got DF after having a new relation. I cannot judge if that is more or less worse than what your father did. You ask me if it is fair that I got DF and he didn't? Maybe not. But I don't think that DF isn't about being fair, it is not a punishment. By DF'ing me they said: we don't want you anymore. Which was fine, because I allready lost my faith in God, I could finally enjoy my freedom and I was tired of the apathy and dumbness amongst JW. So, I saw it as a blessing, not as a punishment. I don't know of DF'ing your father would have helped you and your sisters. Maybe it would even have worsened the situation. Also: DF is religious measure, not to protect your family.

165

Board of bitterness

by 1009 in

i always was a critical jw, now df and agnost.

but still this religion fascinates me.

in my eyes most jw are very sincere, but dumb sheep.. this board is filled with ex-jw.

1009

factfinder
Hi 1009,
I don't think I am bitter. Dissapointed. Sad, because my hopes for the future were found to be untrue.
I wondered too why there are so many on jwn who are very angry at the wts, but now I understand. People have had their lives wasted and ruined by spending it as a jw. I could have gotten a career, but, no, just part time jobs because armageddon is coming any day now and we need to put Jehovah first. Now I will have no money to retire on. I have no future to look forward to.
For years I also felt anger towards jws, but I did not want all the negativity. I'm trying to become more balanced. But I have not forgotten the bad experiences. They have affected me.
I have no desire to stop witnesses from being such, nor would I encourage anyone to join them. It is up to each one as to what they want to believe.
JWN allows us to vent, ask questions, have access to information we would not otherwise have.
I'm glad that you had many good experiences as a jw. But why did you leave?
Anyway, speaking for myself, I do not think I am bitter, and I do not hate jws. But it is not the truth, no religion is and I am disgusted by the arrogance of the new gb and their attitude , hatred and view of any who no longer want to attend meetings.
There are many good comments here. I hope your question has been answered.

Hi factfinder.

Thank you for your answer. I think our attitude is quit similar. It is sad that your active family doesn't maintain contact with you. I read in your first post at this board that you're not DF, so they cannot use that excuse. But it is cool to see that you want to avoid 'all the negativity', dispite the disappointments.

Basically I left because I lost my faith in God. You can read more details in a post in this topic and also in my first topic at this board.

You also tell in you first topic that you always felt 'like an outsider'. May I ask why? Did that make it easier for you to take a distance to JW? I'm wondering why my experiences are so different from most of the others here. But I too felt like an outsider. Like I was the only one that didn't blindly follow what the WTG said, but because I was convinced that their explanation was right. Maybe that is a clue to understand why I am not as disappointed as others.

JakeM2012
1009, I don't appreciate your accusatory tone and condemnation, and your reasoning is as flawed as WTBTS's.

When visiting this site, one must give consideration that many are at various stages of recovery and reconstruction. The vast majority here are sincerely trying to move on with life in a peaceful and non-retalitory way. Many of us are in the process of reconstruction of our lives after realization that what we had worked so hard and made personal sacrifices for and with has been nothing but lies. Some have devoted the best years and even the majority of their life to the efforts of Watchtower Bible Tract Society with nothing to show for it other than regrets, not even in any supposed spiritual way of storing treasures in heaven.

When I consider this group of individuals compared to the investors of the King of Ponzi Schemes Bernie Madoff, I see similarities and differences. Quite frankly, you have no qualifications or divine appointment for your judgmental attitude either. You state that if we don't claim to have the truth we cannot judge who is right and wrong. I may not know the full truth of the universe, but I can with confidence tell you that Watchtower Bible and Tract Society's teachings are not only incorrect, but intentionally fabricated lies, even they admit that by changing their teachings regularly claiming "new light". So basically, shut your trap up.

Hi JakeM2012, I recognize the ' various stages of recovery and reconstruction'. My stage is clearly different than yours. In the past I could, as an active JW, not post at this board. I too ' have devoted the best years and even the majority of their life'. But not to an organisation, but to a God that does not exist. Now I am no longer a JW and I can show you that there are also ex-JW without the anger that is common at this board. And you tell me to shut up because you just cannot accept that I am not as angry as you are? Get a life!

EmptyInside
Everyone is different.

I'm glad you feel so well-adjusted after leaving the Witnesses.

But,if we can't occasionally vent here,where else can we go? lol.I have read literal horror stories on this board. Some have gone through much abuse and lost their families.

Some,like me,can't be 100% open with those they love.

So,if they want to discuss these issues with those who have gone through the same,then,why not

Actually,I see more depressed and complaining people at the Kingdom Hall then I read here.

Hi EmptyInside,

You have some good points. I'm probably here too to vent. No other place to do that either. And indeed, the ones with horror stories should post them here, it is obvious the best place for that. And it is also true that there are many 'depressed and complaining people at the Kingdom Hall'. Nice meeting you.

Berengaria
You were in for 30 years and have no family or friends there??

Hi Berengaria,

I was a 3th generation JW. father got DF when I was just a little kid. My grandmother allready died. My mother is inactive. My halfsister, on fathers side, and her children are JW too. But I only have seen her about 10 times in my life, the first time when I was about 22. We did not have much contact.

I did have friends, but not very much. I was very independent, had good contact with all in my environment. The ones that I called friends in the past, appeared to be fake friends. So, no, I do not have friends there.

165

Board of bitterness

by 1009 in

i always was a critical jw, now df and agnost.

but still this religion fascinates me.

in my eyes most jw are very sincere, but dumb sheep.. this board is filled with ex-jw.

1009

Frazzled UBM
I wondered how the organization found out about that [pornography] - 1009 did you confess? If all elders came clean on that score I bet none of them would have any privileges.

Yes, I felt guilty and confessed.

165

Board of bitterness

by 1009 in

i always was a critical jw, now df and agnost.

but still this religion fascinates me.

in my eyes most jw are very sincere, but dumb sheep.. this board is filled with ex-jw.

1009

LisaRose
You didn't hear about [bullying or abuse] because anyone who complained was disfellowshipped, with no way to tell their side of the story. Sure there were nice people in the organization, and many good elders, but it is rotten at the top, to those men, nothing is as important as maintaining control and keeping the rank and file dependent, ignorant and afraid to question anything. I was like you, I left, but thought it was a good religion, just not for me. Since then my eyes have been opened. It took eight years before I felt comfortable going on a so called "apostate" website. I realized I was manipulated and lied to. Go to Howcultswork.com them come back and say the dubs don't fit the criteria. Believe me it was hard to accept that I was in a cult, that I had been that stupid, but it was true.

I've seen a few DF's. My parents got DF'ed before my birth and were reinstated later. My father has some complaints about that DF, because the elders were harsh with him. He never complained about his second (and current) DF. Other friends of me also came back as JW and didn't complain. I got DF and didn't see any bullying. So again: I think it involves a minority.

You say it is 'rotten at the top'. Do you know those men personally? I think they are sincerely trying to lead an organization according to their believes.

I've read the part on http://howcultswork.com/. Yes, most of the keypoints apply to JW. But I find the definition of 'cult' very fluid. The main point however is mind control. There is absolutely mind control among JW, but I doubt the JW-leaders are conscious they are practising it. And I wonder if that by definition is a bad thing. I see mind control all around me: on television, commercials, politics. Some are more sensitive of mind control than others. As I described before: I think most JW are just dumb followers. But when they are happy with that, who am I to judge them? Why should we 'help' them if they feel comfortable?

85

I'm thinking about going back

by Corboy101 in

jw
friends

i have been out for 22 years.i was raised as a jehovahs witness.

i was baptized in 1986 but soon after left the religion.

theres a whole lot to the reasons why i left, but i left.

1009

punkofnice
Er....guys.........I don't know if anyone saw corboy's response?

His response was...

Most of you (not all) just want to argue and be angry to anyone who "disagrees" with them. Sound familiar? Dumbasses!!!

I think he wend back...

165

Board of bitterness

by 1009 in

i always was a critical jw, now df and agnost.

but still this religion fascinates me.

in my eyes most jw are very sincere, but dumb sheep.. this board is filled with ex-jw.

1009

confusedandalone
1009, you sound like you are actually someone posing as no longer one of JW's when you are infact probably a high hour publisher who recently got involved in some form of wrongdoing that you are afraid to go to the brothers with. You think that coming here and challenging apostates and lashing disfellowshipped ones you are making an atonement for your sin that you are afraid to take before the brothers because of the damage it will cause your family...

I would like to react at this right now because I see that some of you doubt my sincerity.

I am 36 years old Dutchmen and was a 3th generation JW. My father left us when I was 6 and he got DF. Got baptized when I was 14 (1991), started pioneering at 18 (1995), I became MS at 20 (1997), and married another pioneer at 22 (1999). I lost my 'priviliges' after a number of years because of pornography. I regained them again, and we started 'serving' in the foreign langauge field. As MS I was invited to held talks in our and in other congrations in the country. I worked hard in the congregation and I also considered it a 'privilige' to assist our CO in a number of organizational matters.

During the years I always had contact with my DF father. The elders knew that, and never made a problem out of it. My mother became inactive a few years ago. I'm visiting this board for years because I always found interesting things. I also red parts of R. Franz' book. But those never raised any doubts in me.

I had marital problems, and prayed a lot. Years of praying. Finally I concluded that, despite the millions of promises in the Bible, God does not help in any way. That most of the Bible is illogical (I line with https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zOfjkl-3SNE). My faith was destroyed. I got myself a girlfriend, left my ex-wife over a year ago and got DF .

I started working fulltime for the first time in my life, moved to Colombia and married my loving girlfriend. Right now I do not believe in a God, nor in the Bible, nor in what JW teach. I feel free and happier as ever .