Posts by fjtoth
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218The Duality -- The Father and The Son
by UnDisfellowshipped indo jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?
do they believe in a "duality"?
do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.
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218
The Duality -- The Father and The Son
by UnDisfellowshipped indo jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?
do they believe in a "duality"?
do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.
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fjtoth
Mary,
I agree. You made some excellent points.
Frank
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218
The Duality -- The Father and The Son
by UnDisfellowshipped indo jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?
do they believe in a "duality"?
do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.
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fjtoth
Undisfellowshiped,
Here is another obvious mistake in the Jamieson, Fausset, and Brown Commentary, a quote you included in your post #2293:
Mar 13:31 -
Heaven and earth shall pass away; but my words shall not pass away — the strongest possible expression of the divine authority by which He spake; not as Moses or Paul might have said of their own inspiration, for such language would be unsuitable in any merely human mouth.Notice the claim that Jesus' statement in verse 31 "would be unsuitable in any merely human mouth." But look at the verse that follows, verse 32, a statement that Trinitarians tell us was uttered by Jesus' human nature:
"But of that day or hour no one knows, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but the Father alone."
Don't you think it's a bit silly to say Jesus' divine nature was speaking in one sentence and his human nature was speaking in his very next sentence? In fact, that's what the Jamieson Commentary does! After mentioning several Trinitarians, it says that they "and others understood it to mean that as man our Lord was ignorant of this." (Emphasis is partly Jamieson's and partly mine.) This would be laughable if it wasn't such a serious twisting of the Scriptures, and if it didn't make Jesus look like someone who was quite mixed up in his thoughts! Who is it that has authority on earth to tell us when Jesus was speaking as God and when he was speaking as a man? The whole idea of Jesus being a God-man is absurd as well as unscriptural!
Once again I say, more and better insights are gleaned by reading the Bible alone, without interference from the writings of uninspired men. There's nothing wrong with reading such writings, but what they say needs to be carefully examined in the light of the Scriptures, not in the light of human creeds. Otherwise, we end up doing what the JWs do, comparing the Scriptures with their Watchtower writings and accepting the uninspired writings instead of the Bible.
Frank
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218
The Duality -- The Father and The Son
by UnDisfellowshipped indo jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?
do they believe in a "duality"?
do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.
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fjtoth
icocer,
So only his 20th century theologians (the Bible) are right, disregarding what guys decades or centuries removed from the real sources have to say on the issue.
Are you making an effort to start a new thread, as if the preceding pages of this debate don't exist? We've already dealt with this issue involving the "Early Church Fathers." Have you read those previous pages?
And, as I plainly showed above, the earliest recorded "orthodox" document for public consumption on the Trinity is the revised edition of the Nicene Creed. Even if the idea of a Trinity was floating around in the 3rd Century, what would it prove? The U.S. Constitution was composed about 200 years ago, and small as it is compared to the New Testament, scholars debate over its meaning. So, who is correct? Should we swallow what recent debaters are saying about the Constitution, or should we check the Constitution ourselves to see what it actually says?
The same is true of the Bible. We can read all sorts of books and creeds about it, but the only way we'll ever know what it really says is by reading the book for ourselves.
Genuine Christian theology begins with the creed subscribed to by Jesus:
One of the scribes came and . . . asked him, "What commandment is the foremost of all?" Jesus answered, "The foremost is, `HEAR, O ISRAEL! THE LORD OUR GOD IS ONE LORD; AND YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH.' The second is this, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF.' There is no other commandment greater than these." The scribe said to him, "Right, Teacher; you have truly stated that HE IS ONE, AND THERE IS NO ONE ELSE BESIDES HIM; AND TO LOVE HIM WITH ALL THE HEART AND WITH ALL THE UNDERSTANDING AND WITH ALL THE STRENGTH, AND TO LOVE ONE'S NEIGHBOR AS HIMSELF, is much more than all burnt offerings and sacrifices." When Jesus saw that he had answered intelligently, he said to him, "You are not far from the kingdom of God." After that, no one would venture to ask him any more questions. -- Mark 12:28-34.
Jesus subscribed to the creed of Israel and the gospel concerning the kingdom of God:
Hear, O Israel! The LORD is our God, the LORD is one! You shall love the LORD your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your might. These words, which I am commanding you today, shall be on your heart. You shall teach them diligently to your sons and shall talk of them when you sit in your house and when you walk by the way and when you lie down and when you rise up. -- Deuteronomy 6:4-7.
Now after John had been taken into custody, Jesus came into Galilee, preaching the gospel of God, and saying, "The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand; repent and believe in the gospel." -- Mark 1:14, 15.
Jesus was born into the religion of the Jews. The Jews did not believe in a Trinity, and neither did Jesus. As I wrote above on this page:
He [Jesus] said: "We Jews worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews." (John 4:22) According to the Good News Translation, he said: "We Jews know whom we worship." And according to The Message translation by Eugene H. Peterson, Jesus said: "You worship guessing in the dark; we Jews worship in the clear light of day."
Frank
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218
The Duality -- The Father and The Son
by UnDisfellowshipped indo jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?
do they believe in a "duality"?
do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.
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218
The Duality -- The Father and The Son
by UnDisfellowshipped indo jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?
do they believe in a "duality"?
do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.
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fjtoth
icocer,
You wrote:
Before that the early church writters who were not Athanasian Creeders but Trinitarians in a different form.
Please explain what you mean by "Trinitarians in a different form."
The Apostle's Creed was not composed by the apostles, but it is the oldest creed subscribed to by modern Christians. It says nothing about a Trinity.
The Apostles' Creed
I believe in God the Father, Almighty, Maker of heaven and earth.
And in Jesus Christ, His only-begotten Son, our Lord;
Who was conceived by the Holy Spirit, born of the virgin Mary;
Suffered under Pontius Pilate; was crucified, dead, and buried; He descended into hell;
The third day He rose again from the dead;
He ascended into heaven, and sitteth at the right hand of God the Father Almighty;
From thence He shall come to judge the living and the dead.
I believe in the Holy Spirit.
I believe a holy catholic Church, the communion of saints;
the forgiveness of sins;
the resurrection of the body;
and the life everlasting. AMEN.The original Nicene Creed was composed in 325. It described the Son as "very God of very God" along with the Father. The holy spirit wasn't added until 56 years later, in 381, when the creed was revised. So, as much as Trinitarians would like to have us believe that the earliest Christians believed in a Trinity of some kind, they can offer no evidence of it.
The Creed of Chalcedon was drafted in 451 to define and declare "the two natures of Christ." It also described Mary as "the Mother of God." The Athanasian Creed was composed later.
You wrote:
Please dont just say the Bible.
I'm sorry, but I can't do any better than that.
Frank
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218
The Duality -- The Father and The Son
by UnDisfellowshipped indo jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?
do they believe in a "duality"?
do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.
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218
The Duality -- The Father and The Son
by UnDisfellowshipped indo jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?
do they believe in a "duality"?
do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.
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fjtoth
Undisfellowshiped,
You wrote:
However, just because the Jews did not believe in the Trinity does not automatically mean that it is false. The Jews (for the most part) also rejected Jesus as the Messiah.
Aren't you overlooking what Jesus said about the Jews and their knowledge of God? He said: "We Jews worship what we know, for salvation is from the Jews." (John 4:22) According to the Good News Translation, he said: "We Jews know whom we worship." And according to The Message translation by Eugene H. Peterson, Jesus said: "You worship guessing in the dark; we Jews worship in the clear light of day."
So it does seem perfectly logical to conclude that the Trinity is false, based upon what Jesus himself said concerning the Jews and their knowledge of God.
Frank
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218
The Duality -- The Father and The Son
by UnDisfellowshipped indo jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?
do they believe in a "duality"?
do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.
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fjtoth
Undisfellowshiped,
You wrote:
. . . all of the same honor, glory, praise, thanks, and worship given to The Father must also be given to The Son, as God The Father Himself commands us (See John 5:22-23, . . .
It is stretching things to say "all of the same honor."
According to Ephesians 5:22, wives are commanded to be in subjection to their husbands "as to the Lord." The language construction is similar to John 5:23. Your argument would give husbands the right to demand subjection from their wives to the extent wives are required to render subjection to "the Lord."
In the same way, Ephesians 6:5 commands slaves to obey their masters "as to Christ." The way you explain John 5:23, slaves would be obligated to obey human masters to the same degree that they are expected to be obedient to Christ.
So John 5:23 does not prove that the Son is equal to the Father any more than Ephesians proves that husbands are equal to "the Lord" or that earthly masters are equal to "Christ."
Frank
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218
The Duality -- The Father and The Son
by UnDisfellowshipped indo jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?
do they believe in a "duality"?
do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.
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fjtoth
. . . cheering you from the sidelines.
yesidid,
Thanks. It'll be interesting to see how this thread ends, if it ever does!
Frank