Posts by fjtoth

The Biblical Trinity doctrine says that there is only ONE God who is Three Distinct Persons. Each Person has the full Nature of God, but there are not three gods, only One God.

My reply is that the Trinity is in no way "Biblical." Neither the word nor the concept is found in the Bible. We must not ignore the fact that God speaks of himself as ONE PERSON, whereas Trinitarians claim he is Three Persons. Thousands of times -- yes, THOUSANDS OF TIMES -- God speaks of himself as ONE PERSON ONLY, and there isn't even one verse that says God is Three Persons, not even one!

As shown above, Trinitarians unscripturally depict God with THREE faces, but God has only ONE face. He did not say, "You cannot see my three faces and live." Instead, he said, "You cannot see my [singular] face [singular], for man may not see me [singular] and live." (Exodus 33:20) God even describes his very back as ONE, so that we may understand that he is but ONE PERSON: "Then I will take my hand away and you shall see my [singular] back [singular], but my [singular] face [singular] shall not be seen." (Exodus 33:23)

These passages are from the Bible. Where are the passages that say God is THREE?

Frank

218

The Duality -- The Father and The Son

by UnDisfellowshipped in

do jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?

do they believe in a "duality"?

do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.

fjtoth

46

Knorr on 1914: "I don't know." - Mouthy Alert!

by compound complex in

dear mouthy and other denounced ones,.

you may find this double standard $%^@#@*&!

"in 1975, knorr made a remarkable and candid statement to the governing body, which confirmed his growing disillusionment until his death two years later: ["]'"there are some things i know --- i know that jehovah is god, that christ jesus is his son, that he gave his life as a ransom for us, that there is a resurrection.

fjtoth

218

The Duality -- The Father and The Son

by UnDisfellowshipped in

do jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?

do they believe in a "duality"?

do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.

fjtoth

218

The Duality -- The Father and The Son

by UnDisfellowshipped in

do jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?

do they believe in a "duality"?

do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.

fjtoth

Undisfellowshiped,

You wrote:

Another similar example would be when Pharaoh made Joseph the head of Egypt -- in the eyes of the Egyptians, Joseph was THE ruler, everything Joseph says goes. Joseph had all the full authority and power of the Pharaoh. But Joseph was subject to Pharaoh. In relation to the people, Joseph was THE ruler of Egypt, but in relation to Pharaoh, Joseph was in subjection to Pharaoh.

You don't seem to realize it, but your reference to Pharaoh and Joseph illustrates the unitarian position, not the Trinity. Joseph was not equal to Pharaoh, as you yourself state. He was made second ruler, not equal ruler. Pharaoh told him: "Only in the throne I will be greater than you." So, I don't think it is correct to assert that "Joseph was THE ruler, everything Joseph says goes. Joseph had all the full authority and power of the Pharaoh."? (Underlining mine.)

What I see in your illustration is a very strained effort to prove that God and Jesus are equals and yet not equals. That raises the question: When is Jesus equal to the Father? Most of the time? Some of the time? Once in awhile?

The answer simply must be "never" since, as you say, the Father is Almighty God to Jesus, but Jesus is never Almighty God to the Father.

Joseph was not called Pharaoh. He was not born second in command. He was appointed by Pharaoh who was viewed as God by the Egyptians. So, in what way is there a similarity to the Trinity? That doctrine teaches that the Father and the Son are eternal, neither of them having had a beginning. On the other hand, the Bible teaches Jesus did have a beginning, that he is not Almighty God, and that he was appointed as God similar to the way Moses, the angels, and the judges and kings of Israel served as God to the people when they spoke for God. As Peter said in very simple language that should be easy for any of us to understand: "Therefore let all the house of Israel know for certain that God has made him both Lord and Christ--this Jesus." (Acts 2:36) Jesus did not make himself Lord, Christ and God. As explained very plainly in Hebrews chapter 1, it was God who anointed and appointed him to those positions at a certain point in history.

Frank

218

The Duality -- The Father and The Son

by UnDisfellowshipped in

do jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?

do they believe in a "duality"?

do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.

fjtoth

Undisfellowshiped,

You wrote:

Since the Scriptures teach that The Father and The Son are two distinct Persons, The Son can be Almighty God (in relation to humans and angels) and still be subject to His Father. In a similar way, a human king's son can also be co-regent (or co-king) with his father, and yet, the son is still subject to his father. However, in the eyes of the people, the king's co-regent son IS the king.

There are two glaring weaknesses in your illustration:

You say the Father and the Son are "two distinct Persons," but your illustration of co-regents is of two distinct entities or beings who are persons as well. So you are giving us a picture that does not in any way illustrate your point.
The Trinity doctrine pictures the Father as Almighty God in relation to his Son as well as all others. But the problem is that it does not allow the Son or the Holy Spirit to be Almighty God to the Father. In what way, then, are they "Almighty" if there is someone above them? Jesus is the Son "of God," and the Holy Spirit is the Spirit "of God," but nowhere does the Bible or even the Trinity doctrine mention the Father "of God." The phrase "of God" in plain English denotes that the Son is not God but is distinct from and subordinate to God. Additionally, Jesus said the Father is "the only true God," but nowhere is there even a hint in Scripture that the Son or the Holy Spirit are in any way "the only true God." (John 17:3) Jesus clearly pointed to God as being someone other than himself. He did not say he came into this world of his own initiative but that he was "sent forth" by God. As Jesus said, "Truly, truly, I say to you, a slave is not greater than his master, nor is one who is sent greater than the one who sent him." (John 13:16)

Frank

218

The Duality -- The Father and The Son

by UnDisfellowshipped in

do jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?

do they believe in a "duality"?

do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.

fjtoth

Undisfellowshiped,

You wrote:

I didn't choose Psalm 45, the inspired writer of Hebrews chose it to prove that Jesus is "God" in a way that is superior to the angels.

If you had been reading all the entries in this thread that you started, you would realize that I've already dealt with all the points you raise in your most recent posting.

Your statement above is a denial that Psalm 45 was inspired by the holy spirit. In your mind, it became inspired only when it was quoted by the writer to the Hebrews. You are denying that the sons of Korah knew what they were writing about, and you are suggesting that the holy spirit misled them by causing them to think their words applied to the king who sat upon David's throne in their own day. You are suggesting that all the prophets and priests who applied those words to the king in Jerusalem were also misled.

I really don't see how any serious person would consider this logical at all. Trinitarian scholars, as you have acknowledged, are among those who view Psalm 45 as originally applying to David's descendants upon the throne, but you have chosen to ignore even them and to propound your own private interpretation.

Frank

218

The Duality -- The Father and The Son

by UnDisfellowshipped in

do jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?

do they believe in a "duality"?

do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.