Posts by fjtoth

218

The Duality -- The Father and The Son

by UnDisfellowshipped in

do jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?

do they believe in a "duality"?

do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.

fjtoth

Undisfellowshiped,

You wrote:

Just because Jesus is anointed by The Father, that proves that He must be an inferior, lesser god?? I don't agree with that at all. In fact, as I said above in another post, the Bible makes it clear that Jesus was anointed above His companions when He was made, for a little while, lower than the angels as a Man on earth.

Aren't you mocking an arrangement set up by God himself? Are you suggesting that anointings were merely for show, and that they had no value?

There is no getting away from the fact that Jesus was anointed. The very title Christ means anointed, emphasizing that his very existence advertised God's anointing of him for special service. Additionally, he was appointed. He was ineligible for God's service in a special capacity unless he was both anointed and appointed. So I think you are making a big mistake by suggesting, contrary to Hebrews chapter 1, that the anointing of Jesus had no meaning.

And the meaning is this: He was called out by God just as other men were. He was commissioned by God just as other men were. The only difference between him and them is that he was God's own Son by birth. All others anointed by God were descendants of Adam, but Jesus was born without sin and had God himself as his genetic Father.

Frank

218

The Duality -- The Father and The Son

by UnDisfellowshipped in

do jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?

do they believe in a "duality"?

do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.

fjtoth

Undisfellowshiped,

You wrote:

First of all, Christians, Trinitarian or otherwise, should not be making pictures of God or the Divine Being. The Bible forbids that. So, the Trinitarians who did that in the past were sinning by doing that. So are Unitarians or anyone else who makes an image of God.

Now that the paintings and sculptures have been made, they speak volumes about how Trinitarians think of God. If church leaders have condoned such artwork, and they most certainly have, they are telling the artists they have the right idea. To paint God with three faces is only natural if that is the impression people get from sermons on the Trinity. I agree that pictures of God should not be attempted, but I see nothing wrong with depicting the Trinity since the Trinity is a false non-biblical god.

By the way, how do you feel about pictures of Jesus? If Jesus is God, do you think it's okay to produce books about Jesus with pictures of him? What about movies with Jesus in them? If Jesus is God, and it's wrong to make pictures of God, don't you think it's wrong for Christians to read such books and go to such movies?

Frank

218

The Duality -- The Father and The Son

by UnDisfellowshipped in

do jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?

do they believe in a "duality"?

do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.

fjtoth

Undisfellowshiped,

You wrote:

I encourage you to post the hardest, toughest questions you can possibly think of about the Trinity, and I will study the Scriptures and pray to God, and I will post my replies (as I have the time).

I really hope you mean that. I've already submitted so many questions that you haven't touched yet. What, for example, is your answer to the question about the way God speaks of himself thousands of times in the Scriptures?

I've been wondering why you have ignored that question for so long.

God NEVER speaks of himself as "us" or "we" or "our". He ALWAYS says "I" and "me" and "myself." How do you explain that if he is speaking for THREE persons?

In another thread you used to argue that God said "us" in Genesis. But that was only three times compared with the THOUSANDS of times where he speaks as a singular person. In those three instances he was speaking to others as the context shows, but Trinitarians make a big issue over those three verses in Genesis. Why don't you say something about those thousands of other verses that I mentioned?

And God isn't the only one to speak of himself in the singular. All through both the Old and New Testaments, his worshipers speak of him as "he" and "his" and "himself." Jesus spoke the same way, not only of the Father, but in every instance where he mentioned the word "God" or "the Majesty."

There are many other questions I've raised. I wait with eagerness to see how you deal with them.

Frank

218

The Duality -- The Father and The Son

by UnDisfellowshipped in

do jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?

do they believe in a "duality"?

do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.

fjtoth

Undisfellowshiped,

You wrote:

The Bible teaches that while Jesus was on earth, He was God and Man. John 1:1 says that the Logos was God. Then God the Logos became flesh (John 1:14). Now, if God becomes flesh, how could God possibly stop being God? He can't! God can't stop being God.

Again I have to tell you that you are reading things into the Bible that are just not there. There is not a verse in the Bible that spells out your belief that Jesus was God and man on earth. Yes, Jesus was God in the secondary sense, just as his ancestors were -- those ancestors who were appointed and anointed by God. Hebrews chapter 1 makes it very clear that just as they were appointed and anointed, so was Jesus. There is nothing in the Bible to indicate that Jesus was God by nature. If Jesus was God by nature, then so are all Christians, in view of 2 Peter 1:4 and several other texts.

I believe you have jumped to the wrong conclusions in your interpretation of John 1:1, 14. Since I know how strongly you feel about those verses, I'm not going to get into a discussion of them here. It would take another thread that would likely last as long as this one has.

I sometimes wonder if people are in their right minds when they speak of God as coming down here to our ultra small planet. Solomon acknowledged that the heavens of the heavens cannot contain God, but Trinitarians ignore that part of the Bible as if it doesn't exist. God is so awesome that none of us can imagine his magnificent greatness. It is dishonoring to God to suggest that he is puny enough to place his foot upon this planet defiled by mankind's sin. There is no scripture that says God himself came down here. But we are told that he sent his Son into the world. We are also told that God dwells among men, but we are told that he does that by his spirit, not by abandoning his universal throne and personally walking by our side. Angels may do that, but God is far too awesome.

I can imagine you will argue against that point of view as well. I think you will do it because I suspect you have never read the Bible from cover to cover. I'm not saying that to be insulting. I'm saying it because of things you say about the Bible and about what is in it. Again, I want to emphasize, Undisfellowshiped, I'm not saying it to be insulting. It's just that something exudes from you that impresses me as coming from someone who is a novice in handling the Bible. You will probably tell me you have read the Bible cover-to-cover. You may even tell me you've done it several times. I will confess that I cannot believe it. If you have, I cannot help but wonder how you have forgotten so much. At any rate, I really doubt we would be having this kind of discussion if you were actually quoting ideas and thoughts from the Bible as they actually occur there. You have impressed me as being very different from 99% of the people with whom I've had Bible discussions throughout my life.

I would highly recommend that you read the Bible through at least once before attempting to teach others what it says. There is a dire warning to all of us in James 3:1: "Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment." We could find ourselves among those described in 1 Timothy 1:7 who wanted to be teachers, "even though they do not understand either what they are saying or the matters about which they make confident assertions."

I'm not saying this applies only to you. It applies to me as well. If you continue to teach the Trinity, and it turns out to be false doctrine in the eyes of God, you will have a lot to answer for. And if I'm teaching wrong by saying only the Father is God by nature, I will have much required of me in "stricter judgment," as James wrote above.

Frank

218

The Duality -- The Father and The Son

by UnDisfellowshipped in

do jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?

do they believe in a "duality"?

do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.

fjtoth

Undisfellowshiped,

You wrote:

If Jesus had human associates, companions or partners, does that mean Jesus was only equal to humans and no greater? See, you really cannot use that argument against the Trinity.

Can't you see how nonsensical your argument is here? You have human associates. I have human associates. Nearly everyone on earth has human associates. What does that prove?

Dogs have human associates. Cats have human associates. Birds have human associates. What does it prove?

Would you argue that dogs are human because they have human associates? Then why argue that someone is God simply because he has God as an associate?

As I mentioned above Abraham had God as his lover, according to the Hebrew text. And vice versa. Was Abraham actually God because of that relationship? If not, why are you making a big issue over a word that has less significance than "lover"?

Frank

218

The Duality -- The Father and The Son

by UnDisfellowshipped in

do jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?

do they believe in a "duality"?

do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.

fjtoth

Undisfellowshiped,

You wrote:

I am posting this just to get some other people's viewpoints on Zechariah 13:7. I am not saying this commentary is definitely correct, as I haven't yet researched the verse enough. But here is one interesting observation:

There you go again, running to your version of The Watchtower. You will notice there is a very big difference between the way you approach the Bible and the way that I do.

If you will put your "Watchtower" aside and actually read the Bible itself, you will find that your "Watchtower" is very much in error, I'm sorry to say. In fact, as you read the from the Commentary, you will notice this admission:

as Grotius, Umbr., Ebrard, Ewald, Hitzig, and others suppose

This shows that at least 5 scholars disagree with the conclusion of the Commentary and they agree with what I said about the shepherd being an evil one.

Frank

218

The Duality -- The Father and The Son

by UnDisfellowshipped in

do jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?

do they believe in a "duality"?

do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.

fjtoth

Undisfellowshiped,

You wrote:

But, you implied that because Jesus has human companions, he was only equal to men and not greater, and now, you are arguing against the very reasoning that you tried to use against the Trinity earlier.

Again I have to say that I don't follow your reasoning. Your argument, not mine, is that Jesus is God because he is God's companion. My argument is you are wrong. Having God as a companion does not make someone God, any more than being God's friend made Abraham God.

More and more I can understand why you accept the Trinity doctrine. I feel bad in telling you, but you have an awful habit of reading things into the Bible that are just not there. Ordinary people would not take the position you do with regard to "companion" or "associate." If the word was "equal," it would be another story. But you are so intent on seeing "equal" where the text says "companion," that you are deriving something in the text that is not there. It seems you wish with all your heart that it was there, but I have to tell you, it just isn't.

Frank

218

The Duality -- The Father and The Son

by UnDisfellowshipped in

do jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?

do they believe in a "duality"?

do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.

fjtoth

Undisfellowshiped,

You wrote:

Either the fact that Jesus has human companions proves that He was only a human or it does not prove this. Either the fact that Jesus has God as His Companion proves that He is God, or it does not prove this.

I find it difficult to understand your reasoning here. Abraham was God's "friend". The word for "friend" in Hebrew is a very warm one, indicating a "lover." It is a stronger word for "friend" and "neighbor" and "companion" than the Hebrew word used in Zechariah 13:7. I mention this because you seem hung up on the idea that the word for "companion" in Zechariah means "equal." It does not. If the word in Zechariah means "equal," the word with regard to Abraham would mean "equal" even more so, if that were possible. My point is that Abraham was much closer to God than the shepherd in Zechariah. If the shepherd was God, in other words, Abraham was God even more so, to use your logic.

As I mentioned above, if God meant "equal," he would have said "equal." But he did not. He used a word that is found elsewhere only in Leviticus. If you carefully examine each instance where the word appears in Leviticus, you will note that it is not a very intimate or warm word. It simply means, basically, one's acquaintance or neighborhood friend, not someone as close as a wife or someone such as Jonathan was to David.

Frank

218

The Duality -- The Father and The Son

by UnDisfellowshipped in

do jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?

do they believe in a "duality"?

do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.

fjtoth

Undisfellowshiped,

You wrote:

If, as I believe you were trying to claim, the fact that Jesus had human companions means that Jesus was nothing more than a man, then, the fact that Jesus has God as His companion should also prove that He is God. I was using your reasoning. You can't have it both ways.

My point was to show the weakness of your argument. I wasn't trying to prove that Jesus was a mere man. You claim Jesus is God because Zechariah says the shepherd is God's companion. My argument is that you are wrong.

As I've shown above, the shepherd is not equal to God. If Jesus is that shepherd, there is no basis for saying Zechariah 13:7 shows that he is God.

There is something about Zechariah 13:7 that I don't think you've noticed. If you read the context, you come to see that the shepherd is not a good person. He is someone who is misleading God's nation, such as the religious leaders of Zechariah's day and of Jesus' day. However, the illustration is of a shepherd who is removed by God. The consequences were that the nation of Israel was dispersed. The people "scattered" like sheep.

This was not a prophecy concerning Jesus and the apostles being scattered. However, Jesus referred to this illustration to show what happens when a shepherd is taken from among the ones he is leading. The principle is the point of Jesus' remark to the apostles.

I'm sure you will pop back that I'm all wrong about this, but I'm content to know what the context says. Furthermore, when referring to Zechariah 13:7, Jesus omitted the part about God's "companion." He omitted it because he knew God was speaking sarcastically about so-called "companions" that he had appointed to lead Israel. He spoke sarcastically because they were evil and deserved to be slain by the sword.

In another post I called it a "prophecy," but bear in mind I was approaching the matter from the Trinitarian point of view.

Frank

218

The Duality -- The Father and The Son

by UnDisfellowshipped in

do jehovah's witnesses believe in two gods or one god?

do they believe in a "duality"?

do jehovah's witnesses and/or the angels worship jesus christ?.

fjtoth

Trinitarians point to Zechariah 13:7 and claim God has an equal. There "the Lord of hosts" speaks of a shepherd as "the man, my associate." Trinitarians say "associate" means "equal." That means the shepherd associate is a person "equal with God."

Trinitarians also tell us the Lord of hosts is really THREE PERSONS. Those three Persons compose one entity or being. The three distinct Persons of the Trinity are one God, not three Gods.

However, you might at this point be prone to ask, "But doesn't that make four persons? Three are in heaven as the Lord of hosts, and one is on the earth as the shepherd associate."

A Trinitarian friend will respond, "Well, no, not exactly. You see, one Person of the Trinity is a God-man. He has both God's nature and man's nature."

But that leads to another question: "Does this mean half of one of those persons is in heaven and the other half is on earth? Doesn't that make two persons separated by the vast exspanse of universal space? And doesn't that mean they are actually two separate beings, one with a spirit body in heaven and the other with a physical body on the earth?

Perhaps feeling a bit confused by the question, our Trinitarian friend might say "Well, no. The shepherd on earth is the God-man. When Jesus was on the earth he was both God and man. Now in heaven he is still both God and man, having both the divine nature and human nature.

You may feel that this leads to still another question: "Does this mean, then, that in Zechariah's day, when the Lord of hosts spoke of his shepherd associate, that he was really only two persons of the Trinity? In other words, they were in heaven, and the God-man was on the earth. If the Trinity in heaven was composed of three persons, wouldn't that make four members of the Trinity if we include the person on earth?

Now, these are not the kinds of questions that Trinitarians want to hear. Such questions indicate you are probing too far into the deep things of God. Before you decide to ask any more questions, your Trinitarian friend and guide will probably suggest that we all move on to another topic.

If you do probe deeper, you may discover that Trinitarians actually worship three gods, after all. It is much better for the sake of your salvation to conclude that the Trinity is a mystery not to be understood by finite minds such as ours.

.