Posts by fjtoth

36

Suicides at Bethel

by CunningMan in

in another thread (i forget which), someone mentioned that somebody committed suicide at bethel.

is this true and if so, how often does it happen?

how many people did it?

Grace,

You're avoiding the issue. You said you are sorry for sparring with me "again." I'm sorry too. For years I've tried to be friends with you, and now and then you make it plain that something's bugging you about me. I wish you'd get over it, whatever it is. I've been out of JWs for many years, yet you continue to make the assertion that I still think and act like a JW, to quote you: "Because you was one of them (bethelites)." I consider that ignorant, insulting and abusive, and yet you've done it on and off for the past 14 years! Perhaps I should campaign to make everybody think that you still think and act like a JW! Would you like that? Again I say, Get over it, lady!

And what are you sparring with me about? I claim that there have been very few suicides at Bethel over a period of several decades. Because the number has been so low, I say persons are picking the wrong fight if they think such a small number is big evidence that, to use your words, the Society is "VERY WICKED, VERY WICKED, VERY WICKED." I say there are a lot worse and more important things about the Society that condemn it. Fewer suicides have occurred at Bethel than in many communities much less in size.

But you want to "spar" with me about that! You wrote: "I love Barbara Anderson & believe what she said." Well, why don't you believe what I tell you about Bethel instead of pretending that you know better? Why do you doubt my word and accept Barbara's when she says exactly what I've said?

Once more I say, "GET OVER IT GRACE!" Stop trying to make issues with me where there are no issues. Either I'm right about suicides at Bethel or I'm wrong. If I'm wrong, so is Barbara. Yet, you say "I love Barbara Anderson & believe what she said." Something about your judgment just doesn't make sense!

Frank

36

Suicides at Bethel

by CunningMan in

in another thread (i forget which), someone mentioned that somebody committed suicide at bethel.

is this true and if so, how often does it happen?

how many people did it?

fjtoth

Mouthy,

Would you twist the apostle Paul's reasoning just because he once was a Pharisee? It seems that you have the view, once a Pharisee always a Pharisee -- and once a Bethelite always a Bethelite. Of course, the same can be said of having been a JW. It's sad to see that that's what you still seem to be in spirit. Too often as JWs, members misconstrue what better informed persons try to tell them. That's exactly what you are doing with what I've written above. Do you also find fault with Barbara and Joe Anderson because they claimed on one of Fearon's conference calls that suicide isn't common at Bethel? And remember, this thread is about suicides at Bethel, not among the rank and file worldwide.

It's kind of sad if you can't see my point and have to accuse me of defending JWs just because I'm appealing for a little sanity and reasonableness. My point is that JWs don't stand condemned just because one or two at Bethel committed suicide over a period of several decades. There are plenty of other reasons to find fault with JWs, but suicides at Bethel isn't one of them, especially if you are ignorant of the circumstances and have no compassion for persons who have poor physical health leading to mental problems. If your position is that so few suicides among thousands is proof that the Society is "VERY WICKED, VERY WICKED, VERY WICKED," then you ought to be condemning other religions too -- simply because some members have killed themselves.

You wrote that you "know many who killed themselves." Can you name ten? Five? Three? Or are you exaggerating things a bit just to prove you're on higher ground than persons who know better?

Frank

36

Suicides at Bethel

by CunningMan in

in another thread (i forget which), someone mentioned that somebody committed suicide at bethel.

is this true and if so, how often does it happen?

how many people did it?

fjtoth

Didn't the wt claim to be the 'happiest people on earth' for many, many years? Would the happiest people on earth try to escape their happy life by jumping to their deaths or hanging themselves?

Carla,

Apparently you've never visited a hospital or nursing home where mentally ill persons are being care for. If you did, you might better understand that some people do things for which they are not responsible. It's a twist to say "happiest people on earth" means absolutely no cases of mental illness, either cases that existed before entering the WT mindset or cases that developed due to deterioration in physical health that ultimately affected the mind. I'm not arguing that JW errors shouldn't be exposed. What I'm appealing for is a little bit of decency and fairness. To find fault with any organization on the basis of a few cases of mental illness, especially by exaggerating those cases, takes away from one's credibility when very real problems with the organization are being exposed. I think this thread is an effort to raise an issue that simply doesn't exist. I don't believe in the least that JWs are the "happiest people in the world." But I would consider it a stretch if I had to prove it by pointing to one or two cases of suicide at Bethel where thousands of people have been living for decades and there is no evidence that the vast majority ever gave thought to killing themselves.

Frank

36

Suicides at Bethel

by CunningMan in

in another thread (i forget which), someone mentioned that somebody committed suicide at bethel.

is this true and if so, how often does it happen?

how many people did it?

fjtoth

I'm not a defender of JWs or the WT Society, but I think something needs to be said to balance out this discussion.

There's something just not right in the story about the Gilead student who was sent by ship to Thailand. Russell Kurzen was a friend of mine. He told me lots of stories over the years, but he never mentioned anything about being removed by Knorr from being a receptionist. No one else ever told me that story either. We heard stories of others being severely disciplined and/or removed by Knorr, but I never heard any such thing about Kurzen, though he did get his share of rolling with the punches that came from the high and mighty at Bethel. He was often the receptionist all the years I was at Brooklyn Bethel from 1957 to 1985. I could be mistaken, and I'm not calling anyone a liar, but I do think something substantial is missing from this story.

As for Wheelock, I can't see why much should be made of his suicide. His death was not hidden from the headquarters staff in Brooklyn or from those of us who were Bethelites in Canada. What we heard is that he was a man severely depressed with a broken heart due to the loss of his wife. I knew his wife, and she was a lovely person. I can understand how he would miss her dearly. Anyone can end up greatly depressed due to lack of nutrition or due to a severe emotional crisis. The WT has never claimed that being a Bethelite guarantees mental or emotional or physical well-being in all circumstances and at all times. When my wife died at Bethel, I thought I was coming close to losing my mind. I was depressed over my loss for years. So I think too much is being made of an incident or two or three out of the thousands upon thousands who have been Bethelites over the past several decades.

There's a lot wrong with the WT Society and JW organization, so why should we feel it's necessary to make a mountain out of a mere molehill like a suicide at Bethel every 10 or 15 years or less often than that? Many communities all over the world with a population much less have as many or more suicides than Bethel. And it's hard for me to understand how anyone can believe such noteworthy happenings are hidden from members of the Bethel "family." When you're at Bethel you know almost everything that's going on. News spreads like wildfire. Sometimes the last ones to find out are those higher up in the hierarchy, and that sometimes frustrates them. For example, I got rebuked by Knorr on one occasion and by George Gangas on another occasion when I told them things I had heard that they couldn't believe were true until later when they heard the same news from others. I'll say it again: I'm not a JW defender, but I don't think we ought to rush into believing rumours about excessive suicides at Bethel and that the Society tries to keep them hushed.

Frank

22

The contagion is spreading - lots of people quietly leaving JWs

by truthseeker in

jw
friends

from reading reports on jwd it seems that many are in the process of quietly leaving the watchtower organization.. it's almost become disease like - and spreading rapidly, even acutely in lands where access to information is greater.. people who i've known for years have suddenly disappeared - it reads like a stephen king novel.. what have you noticed?.

fjtoth

53

EMPTY KINGDOM HALL

by thebigdebate in

i have heard from my father (who is an elder about 50 years old) that there is a great seperating work going on within the org.

he said that almost all of the people my age 25 to 35 have quit going to our hall (about 20 people).

i have not been to a meeting in about 1 year.

fjtoth

53

EMPTY KINGDOM HALL

by thebigdebate in

i have heard from my father (who is an elder about 50 years old) that there is a great seperating work going on within the org.

he said that almost all of the people my age 25 to 35 have quit going to our hall (about 20 people).

i have not been to a meeting in about 1 year.

fjtoth

25

Damn, Lawrence Hughes' Case Was Thrown Out of Court...

by jamiebowers in

but he promises to appeal.. http://www.theglobeandmail.com/servlet/story/rtgam.20080620.wtransfusion21/bnstory/national/home.

fjtoth

The judge says he needs a lawyer, not a "suitcase full of money".

But how do you get a qualified lawyer without a "suitcase full of money"?

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