.
has anyone seen the new figures in the jan 1st watchtower - i have.
what do you think about them?.
Even if some countries seem not to have been affected by 9/11, JWs in those countries most certainly were. Almost immediately the Society began using the incident as a call for action. Some of the most striking photos and drawings in the magazines, including the front covers, were obviously designed to say, "Brothers, there isn't much time left. We all need to do everything we can to warn people about Armageddon!" Fear is a great motivator.
Frank
i've just joined up to silentlambs.
basically i still consider myself a jw, although i'm no longer active.
i do frequent the odd sunday meeting tho, as i still consider 95% of it to be the truth.
Danny,
Here's how I feel:
JWs and some who admire them assert that leaving the organization always ends up in spiritual disaster. We know that isn't true, though obviously some exprience extreme hurt, bitterness, rage, and other negative emotions due to great disappointment. Sometimes those feelings push a person into beliefs or a lifestyle that are strange or even disturbing to others.
I'm convinced that any downward spiral usually begins within the organization, not after a person leaves. As with everything else, the organization refuses to see itself as the blame. So, as disheartened as I sometimes get when I read what intolerant and insulting posters are saying, I live in hope that someday their disposition will change for the better.
Since leaving JWs, I've had my bad moments too. I said things I now regret. Time heals. We generally grow mentally and emotionally as we recover. The best thing we can do for one another is show the kindness and love that might have been missing since long before the other person made the decision or got the marching orders to leave the organization.
I tend to think that most of us in this thread are of that frame of mind or similar.
So, I appreciate your kind words. I really do. I'm with you in feeling that this type of exchange is far more enjoyable and beneficial than mud-slinging, snobbery, anger and other examples of poor manners.
I can't foresee to what extent I'll be able to continue participating in any thread. I have a job that's very time-consuming some weeks and I'm left with little time even to enjoy a full meal or to catch some good sleep. Hopefully it won't always be that way.
Thanks again.
Frank
i've just joined up to silentlambs.
basically i still consider myself a jw, although i'm no longer active.
i do frequent the odd sunday meeting tho, as i still consider 95% of it to be the truth.
Mr. Shakita,
I agree that it's not right to hate JWs. I have many good memories too. If there's any hatred, it comes from them and should not come from us. My mother just turned 87 a few weeks ago but she can't speak to me for fear of being disfellowshiped. Neither can my brother nor my sister. My father died about 3 years ago, and I found out about it a year and a half ago from a Catholic cousin. They even hid it from her for fear she would tell me, and she's a young woman who looked to my father as a replacement for her own father who was killed many years ago. So, that is typical of the way the WT Society breaks up families and makes a mockery out of Christianity by some of its evil teachings and practices. I sincerely appreciate the fine spirit you show and the good common sense contained in your posts.
Frank
i've just joined up to silentlambs.
basically i still consider myself a jw, although i'm no longer active.
i do frequent the odd sunday meeting tho, as i still consider 95% of it to be the truth.
Garybuss,
Thanks for your encouraging comments. You're absolutely right. The only thing that remains constant about the WT Society is continual reform. Sadly, there is never a really true reform. Reforms are meant to make right what is wrong, to make corrections, and to bring about remedies. But that hardly ever happens at the Society. No matter how many so-called reforms there are, everything stays the same.
Did you hear about the little boy who told his mother that he wanted to be on the governing body when he grew up? His mother said, "That's wonderful! But what made you decide to be a member of the governing body?"
"Well," the boy replied, "I'll have to attend conventions anyway, and I figure it will be more fun to stand up and say the same old things year after year than to sit still and listen." Frank
one of the principal teachings of jws is that christ's return was invisible in 1914. this, in my mind, is one of the strongest proofs that they ignore the bible and instead devote their lives to the false teachings of a man-made organization.
mt 24:30 - "and then the sign of the son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
" mt 26:64 - "yet i say to you men, from henceforth you will see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.
Observador,
Thanks for your kind words. I went to your website. While I don't understand Portuguese very well, I can tell you've done an excellent job toward being helpful to truthseekers. May God bless you for doing such a good and much needed work.
Frank
i've just joined up to silentlambs.
basically i still consider myself a jw, although i'm no longer active.
i do frequent the odd sunday meeting tho, as i still consider 95% of it to be the truth.
IslandWoman,
Sorry, I clicked the wrong button and sent my post without finishing it.
I just want to add that for several years I was among those who tried to effect changes for the better in the WT organization. Some of those who were thrown out due to conscientious love of God and the Bible were among my best friends. I don't say that any of them lacked love. Not at all. But time is up. The Society has had plenty of chances to change for the better. Instead, it has become ever more resistant to change. It is not only unloving to remain in it when a person sees such writing on the wall, it is foolish as well. For the sake of new ones and old who continue to be blinded by WT falsehood, love is shown by walking out and shaking the dust off one's feet.
You say you are not a Christian. You are a non-Christian defending a non-Christian corporation as being Christian. There is something ironic about that, but I don't know how to put it into words.
At any rate, be assured that I understand where you're coming from as a former JW, and I appreciate your willingness to at least consider the other side of the story.
Frank
i've just joined up to silentlambs.
basically i still consider myself a jw, although i'm no longer active.
i do frequent the odd sunday meeting tho, as i still consider 95% of it to be the truth.
IslandWoman,
Thanks for your thoughts. I think you and I are more in agreement than it seemed at first.
I see from another thread that in the early '70s your husband worked in the linotype dept. I was in the same dept. from '58 to about '67. He probably knows many folks that I know. In the early 70s I worked in the shipping dept. at 30 C.H. Later I worked in the Gilead Office and in close proximity to several GB members. My wife, who has since died, worked in the sewing room as a seamstress.
I also noted that you live on Long Island. I'm sure I gave at least 3 or 4 "public talks" at all the L.I. KHs while I was at Bkln. I left Bethel and JWs in '94, after serving for almost 40 years between the Bkln and Canadian offices.
I agree with you that it would be a mistake to say there is hardly any good in the JW organization. But I don't see the great danger you seem to see as facing those who leave. As a JW I was a keen Bible student. I still am, but even more so. I have ex-JW, ex-WW Church of God, ex-7th Day Adventist and ex-Christadelphian friends who are also very much into the Bible. I wasn't damaged spiritually by leaving JWs. In fact, my life has never been better. My prayers receive better answers, and my relationship is now with God and Christ instead of to human leaders who haven't got the slightest clue as to the Bible's meaning for individual Christians.
With all due respect, I have to tell you that you're greatly mistaken in thinking that a person's faith in God and the Bible is put to a severe test outside of the JW organization. What I think you fail to realize is where the Society gets all the really good information that it publishes. My eyes were opened when I discovered how much reading and study of Christendom's books is engaged in by members of the GB and writing dept. Surely your husband knows that all Bethelites have access to the home library which contains thousands of books by non-JWs. If any Bethelites gave more interesting and above average talks, you now know why.
The Society doesn't want its members to do such reading for themselves for fear of losing members. It's as simple as that. You might be amazed to see how many churches and seminaries are far ahead of the Society in knowledge and understanding of the Scriptures. The Society generally borrows (steals???) from them without giving honest credit where credit is due.
I don't disagree that there's a lot of falsehood and hypocrisy outside the JW ranks. But I can assure you that there are many decent pastors and millions of other Christians who are just as dismayed and disturbed about that as any JW. The difference is that JWs make a blanket accusation against all religious teachers and students outside their own organization, as if all Bible teachers and students who are not JWs are modern-day Pharisees. The leaders of the Society know better. So do those who regularly write articles and books for the Society. By making such false accusations, they are simply biting the hand that feeds them, and yet they do it with no shame. So we need have no doubts as to who are among the real Pharisees.
You say JWs draw childlike people who are willing to make big sacrifices for God. But I don't see them in hospitals. In nursing homes. In clothing drives. In soup kitchens. Or anywhere else where the real needs of people are being met by those whom JWs condemn as Babylonish. So, I think you've got a JW mindset on what it means to serve God and show love for one's neighbour. Someday you will have to face up to the fact that JWs are not serving God. They are serving an organization that basically has a false gospel. Jesus did not return in 1914. To say so is to make a mockery of what he actually taught about his return. Jesus did not in any way express his approval of JWs in 1919 either. That WT doctrine is a myth and a fraud. Their "zeal" is reminiscent of those Jews Paul accused of lacking accurate knowledge.
Again I have to say you are mistaken about what people leave behind when they become JWs. They are not people who are disgusted with Christendom's "sins." Generally they are lonely people in need of friends. People who are happy with their church do not become JWs. In fact, many of them are disturbed by JW tactics. Those who think Christianity through are aware that, while their own church may not be perfect, JWs represent an extremism in Christianity that gives the Bible and its God a bad name. JWs claim they're the only ones preaching the Kingdom. But is the Kingdom the first thing that honest-hearted people think of when they hear "Jehovah's Witnesses"? Not at all. Most people think of door-to-door nuisances, blood transfusions, flag-saluting, and now child-molesting. People have only the foggiest idea of what the Kingdom means when JWs use the word.
Has the WT Society convinced anybody that other religions are not approved by God. JWs dreamily like to think so. But the fact is the JW religion itself is not approved by God, and they find that hard to believe. So why should they expect non-JWs to feel any different about their own religion?
The best thing that can happen to a person spiritually is to realize that "all" churches are suspect, including JWs. Satan is the one responsible for breaking mankind up into schisms and sects. The WT Society is just one more of his clever inventions to turn people away from God and Christ and to focus them on man.
one of the principal teachings of jws is that christ's return was invisible in 1914. this, in my mind, is one of the strongest proofs that they ignore the bible and instead devote their lives to the false teachings of a man-made organization.
mt 24:30 - "and then the sign of the son of man will appear in heaven, and then all the tribes of the earth will beat themselves in lamentation, and they will see the son of man coming on the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
" mt 26:64 - "yet i say to you men, from henceforth you will see the son of man sitting at the right hand of power and coming on the clouds of heaven.
Carmel,
I like your spunk. The world needs more people like you. People wouldn't have so many problems with the Bible if they could just jump in like you do and give any old interpretation that comes to mind. Here I always thought we had to compare scripture with scripture and let the Bible interpret itself. But, alas, you found a better way!
Congratulations!
Frank
i've just joined up to silentlambs.
basically i still consider myself a jw, although i'm no longer active.
i do frequent the odd sunday meeting tho, as i still consider 95% of it to be the truth.
Mr. Shakita,
Thanks for so kindly expressing an appeal that should touch and warm anyone's heart as it did mine.
Frank
i've just joined up to silentlambs.
basically i still consider myself a jw, although i'm no longer active.
i do frequent the odd sunday meeting tho, as i still consider 95% of it to be the truth.
IslandWoman,
I understand your point of view and go along with it to an extent. However, I hope you also see mine. In this forum I haven't been dealing with someone who merely disagrees in his own heart with what the WT teaches. It's been with someone who has publicly stated several major points of disagreement he has with the Society. He has now thrown in his support with someone who is pretending to be a JW but who has a website that says the WT Society is wrong on many counts. Yet, both profess to believe that JWs are God's "organization." I see that as living a lie. No persons in their right minds would dare to challenge an organization they accept and publicly declare as belonging to God. Otherwise, as Gamaliel said, they may find themselves actually fighting against God himself. Either the organization is God's, as they claim, or it is of men and subject to scrutiny and even criticism. Either it is directed 100 percent by God, or God gives no direction to it at all or possibly only when he feels in the mood. They can't have their cake and eat it too.
I really don't think you're being fair at all with other churches. Very few of them, if any, claim to be God's one and only organization. Neither do they take the strong measures the WT Society does to discipline those who merely have doubts about what their church teaches. The difference is that you can be a Presbyterian and doubt and even express yourself against predestination. You can be a Seventh-Day Adventist and either accept or deny the Trinity. You can be a Roman Catholic and let it be known that you don't believe the pope is infallible. But don't let a JW dare let it be known that he or she doubts that blood transfusions are wrong or that the Society is wrong about 1914, etc.
I think it's very sad indeed that some JWs and ex-JWs really believe that the WT Society is reformable. There is no scriptural basis for such thinking. Likening the Society to ancient Israel is merely wishful dreaming at best and deliberate blindness at the worst. It is a distortion of what the Bible states about those who fall away from the truth. They and the Society point to the apostasy that infiltrated the congregations even while the apostles were alive, and they almost gleefully use that fact of history as the basis for condemning all other religions but their own. Yet they can do nothing but speak glowingly of their own organization as being God's even when it's history shows it to be deceived, treacherous, cunning and arrogant in many respects. The congregation is meant to be a pillar and support of the truth. If the WT Society was actually fulfilling that role of the church, those who publicly find fault with it could most certainly not have the truth or the blessing of God.
If the WT Society has God's spirit and is his instrument, then it should compare favourably with Jesus who spoke only the truth. Those who are its members should compare favourably with Jesus' disciples who acknowledged that he came from God and did nothing wrong. If the Society is indeed like Jesus and is God's chosen instrument, then those members who criticize it can be identified with none other than Judas Iscariot who betrayed his Lord and teacher. Judas was a blatant hypocrite and so are they -- if -- only if the WT Society is what it claims itself to be!
It isn't love that motivates people to try changing the WT Society. It's merely a matter of pride. Jesus said we share in the sins of such an organization if we don't get out -- if we don't flee! Babylon the Great is irreformable and so is the WT Society as a part of it. Anyone who disagrees with Christ is selfishly relying on his or her own preference instead of being lovingly obedient to the Master. As I see it, according to the way you've explained things, you have made Christ himself the most unchristian of all persons. You would accuse him of having people live out on "the street" because he tells them to flee.
You've accused me of being contradictory, of setting myself up as judge, of reading people's hearts, of being wrong, and of being unchristian. I pray your eyes will be opened to see that there are good scriptural reasons why I've written as I have.
I agree with you wholeheartedly that all churches fall short of what genuine Christianity should be. I hope you can also see that JWs fall short just as much, if not more so, than many others. What makes the WT Society worse is its exercise of arrogant dominance over the lives of its blinded people. I wish in your lifetime you had been given the opportunity to see but a fraction of what I have seen of the damage the WT Society has done to the lives of countless numbers of its people. Then you would know with certainty, even as they know, that they are lying through their teeth when they boast about being God's unique organization. Jesus would condemn them just as much as he condemned the scribes and Pharisees for such a judgmental and self-righteous attitude.
Frank
