Posts by SwedishChef

740

The Trinity

by meadow77 in

top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

SwedishChef

"So much for Christianity! You know "Christianity", that religion that burned people at the stake and tortured those that would not believe! What a damn crock!"

Island Woman, I don't want to call you a liar, because this is a common misconception. It is often assumed that the Christians were the ones who "burned people at the stake and tortured those that would not believe."
However, this is simply not the truth; what you should have said is "so much for Catholicism", for the Roman Catholic church was responsible for this reign of terror.
The Roman Catholic church ruled with great authority, and persecuted anyone who did not believe their false doctrine. Bible doctine itself condemns the Catholic Church's teachings and actions, and true Cristians were among the many to die for their faith.
The Roman Catholic Church is the "Harlot" in Revelation chapter 17 and is the largest distortion to the Word of God in history. It bears no resemblance at all to the New Testament church.

740

The Trinity

by meadow77 in

top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

SwedishChef

Here's an article I found on a website ( http://www.letusreason.org/Trin8.htm). I found it to sum up what I believe concerning "is the Trinity pagan?" issue.

Many have adopted this accusation as the main complaint of hindrance to believing in evangelical Christianity. There is no other concept of God attacked more than this subject. There are many things about God that are not understood immediately, I've heard the same for predestination. Ive heard it said "people dont join the Evangelical church because they cant understand the teaching on the Trinity". This is just one of many straw man arguments. People do not come to Christ because they dont understand the numerous doctrines. They refuse to because they cannot admit they are sinful and are in need of help outside themselves. Turning over their control to God is an act of faith. Instead faith is substituted with the carnal mind wanting to understand something from strictly a human perspective. If I can't fully understand it I will not believe, but this is only an excuse. As Jesus stated in Jn.3:19-21" Men love darkness rather than light, they don't come to Christ because their deeds will be exposed". Both Jews and Muslim's emphatically deny that God has a Son, if one is going to find a doctrine offensive to them, I think this would be it. No one preaches the Trinity in salvation but what is preached is that Jesus is the Son of God, he is Lord. We learn about the nature of God and other basic doctrines as we grow in the faith, not before. The simple reason is we need the Holy Spirit to be our teacher in the deeper things of God.
Is the Trinity pagan? The pagan religions had what we call trinities however on closer examination they are not the same in concept or substance. In the same way we would not agree with all the other religions that have a strict monotheistic view of God to be embraced as the same God of the Bible. (Islam, Bahai) The pagan concept was encapsulated with a Father, Mother, giving birth to a Son. They were three major Gods with many minor god's as well. Their trinity was comprised of three Gods not one. The Greek triad of Zeus, Athena, and Apollo, the Hindu triad of Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva the Egyptian triad of Isis, Horus, and Sub bear no resemblance to the Biblical Trinity. They were all separate not united as the one God and almost unanimously had a mother involved as in a heavenly family. This was really tritheism, which has more in common with Mormonism than a triune God. Anti Trinitarians make usage of the statues with three heads and saying that is our pagan God. If one is going to discount the Trinity because of some similarities in name only and not in substance. Then maybe they should be looking at their own pagan similarities. One can still be in idolatry, if their one God is not the God of the Bible.
Anti Trinitarians make usage of the statues with three heads and saying that is our pagan God. If one is going to discount the Trinity because of some similarities in name only and not in substance. Then maybe they should be looking at their own pagan similarities. One can still be in idolatry, if their one God is not the God of the Bible.
Where did the pagans get a concept of three ? Why not two or four ? Where did they get the idea of a God in heaven anyway? What about their belief in a virgin and a son, where did that originate from ? Rom.1:20-25 tells us that man from the beginning knew God."... 'and their foolish hearts were darkened" vs.25 "they exchanged the truth for a lie, and worshipped and served the creature rather than the creator." When mankind fell into darkness of sin, they still retained some elements of the truth but distorted its meaning and it became lost.
As Walter Martin wrote "In order to find out if the doctrine of the Trinity is true, we do not look to see if it resembles paganism, but to the bible, to see if God teaches it in his word. Pagans also believe in the concept of God. does this mean that God must not be true? Pagans sleep. Does that mean sleeping is wrong ? We must not dismiss an idea merely because it is held in common with those whom we may not approve." (the New Cults p.49) Lets not try to find all kinds of perversions from the outside that have nothing to do with the Biblical record, lets go to the Scripture to prove our major points.
Alexander Hislop, in his book, "the two Babylon's", traces the history of the practices and traditions of the Roman Catholic church. He writes on pg. 18, "All these forms have existed from ancient times, while overcome with idolatry, the recognition of the Trinity was universal, proving how deep rooted in the human race was the doctrine on the subject , which comes out so distinctly in Genesis" Robert watts in New Apologetic says "The Pagan triads are "residuary fragments of their lost knowledge of God, not different stages in a process of evolution. But evidence of a moral and spiritual degradation" (Augustus H. Strongs systematic Theology p.352)
While their are Pagan Trinities which can be traced back to Babylon, instead of supporting anti Trinitarian views such as the Watchtower literature promotes, it is evidence for the tri-une God. Lets not try to find all kinds of perversions from the outside that have nothing to do with the Biblical record, lets go to the Scripture to prove our major points
Hislop writes that many pagan religions held to one infinite God the creator. Strict monotheism is found in Islam and a few other religions. Are we now to accept their view because God is called one (singular).
If we are to reject the concept of the triune God, a unified one, because of the pagan distortions, then we must reject much more than this. The pagan cultures also had a virgin birth and some even had a resurrection, Tammuz died and raised 40 days later. The pagan religions had a priesthood and sacrifices, this too became distorted with human sacrifices for Gods blessings. Some Pagans believed that certain gods became men. They had Biblical symbology such as a dove, the lamb, altars, their are many religions that have distortions of the Bibles account of the flood. Are we now to reject Genesis because of their misrepresentations. They also practiced tongues- ecstatic babble. All of these are counterfeits and distortions of truth, yet we are told since they have a counterfeit Trinity, we are to reject the Biblical Trinity on the same grounds. If you are going to do that, then you must reject all of it on the basis of it being found in some form in ancient paganism. You then annihilate the doctrine of Christ as the God/man, virgin birth, his sacrifice etc. All these are the proof of what Paul explained of what happened in history in Romans one, that mankind had a true knowledge but refused to worship him and sank into idolatry.
The God of the Bible is unique. He is tri-une, which is neither polytheistic nor is it tri-theistic. God is one in nature and is composed of three distinct eternal persons. They are one in substance with a difference in position. What makes all three the one God is that they share the same nature. This is the simple description of the God of the Bible. There is one choice from the Bibles revelation, if one denies the tri-une God, they are either left with atheism or polytheism.

740

The Trinity

by meadow77 in

top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

SwedishChef

I amazing how many people call me "decieved" a "pagan", and yet they are the ones ignoring scripture.

740

The Trinity

by meadow77 in

top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

SwedishChef

Oh was that you herk? I overlooked your little signature.

740

The Trinity

by meadow77 in

top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

SwedishChef

Fjtoth, first of all, I wasn't commenting anything about you. I was talking about Herk. (Who, if you notice, is the one making all the insulting cartoons and calling everyone decieved, blind, etc) Why do you take a side against me and not Him?
I have given plain Scripture which identifies the Messiah as the Father. John 1:1 says Jesus is God. If you've read some of my other posts, and posts of other Trinitarians here, you will see that there is a large mass of passages in the Bible which identify Jesus as God, or having traits that only God can have.
I have yet to see someone refute what I said about the "one creator" argument. I have yet to see someone refute Isaiah 6:9.

"That's pretty funny, coming from a guy who twists and distorts, not only what the Scriptures say, but even what others say. "

Show me one example of when I distorted what the Scriptures say.

78

Calvinism

by Calvinist02 in

the basic 5 points of calvinism.

1. total depravity- all men are sinners.

we are totally corrupt and wicked.

SwedishChef

Isaiah 64:6 "But we are all as an unclean thing, and all our righteousnesses are as filthy rags; and we all do fade as a leaf; and our iniquities, like the wind, have taken us away."
Romans 3:23 "For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"
Romans 3:10,11 "As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one: There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God."
John 6:44 "No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day."
Romans 9:15 "For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion."

There is none that does good, there is none that seek God. It is a doctrine that, by it's nature, is offensive to human nature.

1 Thessalonians 1:4 "Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God."
Ephesians 1:11 "In whom also we have obtained an inheritance, being predestinated according to the purpose of him who worketh all things after the counsel of his own will:"

Never fear though, all who come to God will obtain salvation. He will not cast anyone out, He will not deny anyone His mercy. Just believe and repent.

John 6:37 "All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out."
Revelation 22:17 "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely."
Romans 10:13 "For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved."
Acts 2:21 "And it shall come to pass, that whosoever shall call on the name of the Lord shall be saved."
John 3:15 "That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life."
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."
Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be [spiritually] baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

740

The Trinity

by meadow77 in

top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

SwedishChef

Herk, the truth does hurt, and by all your name calling and foolish mockeries, it has obviously hurt you.

The Bible says that Jesus created ALL things. The Bible also says that there is ONE Creator. He is identified as Jehovah. The Bible says that Jesus made all that was made, and if it were not for Him, nothing would be made that was made. How can this be? "...and the Word was God."

You can't refute the facts. It's what the Bible says.

John 14 identifies Jesus as being one with the Holy Spirit. He says he would bid the Father to send the Comforter, that he will dwell in you. Then Jesus says "I will dwell in you." I've already pointed this out in a previous post.

You also can't get around Isaiah 9:6, where the Messiah is identified as the EVERLASTING FATHER. (Every version identifies the Messiah as Father.) Jesus says that there is ONE Father. But how can this be? "...and the Word was God."

What the Bible says:
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

What Herk reads:
Isaiah 9:6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, a god, kind of like the everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

You should not mock what you don't understand, and this you have been doing.

740

The Trinity

by meadow77 in

top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

SwedishChef

Herk, I am personally requesting you stop posting these rediculous cartoons. For someone who can't refute the doctrine of the Trinity, you sure do a lot of mocking.
Can you refute Isaiah 9:6? Or this passage in John 14? No, of course not. You really should wise up.

740

The Trinity

by meadow77 in

top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

SwedishChef

To me, this passage in John 14 could not be any clearer.

740

The Trinity

by meadow77 in

top reasons the wts is lying about the trinity.

their translation of john 1:1 is not only a complete farce but falls apart upon closer examination of their own beliefs.

the insertion of the phrase a god, instead of god is just a clear misinterpretation.

SwedishChef

"If you do not believe that the nature/substance of the angels is the same as the Son because they were created but he was begotten, why do you believe the nature/substance of the Holy Spirit, who was neither created no begotten, is the same as the Son and the Father?"

Earnest, I believe that there is one God eternally existing and manifesting Himself to us in three persons--Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

John 14:9-20 "John 14:9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Shew us the Father? Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father. And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son. If ye shall ask any thing in my name, I will do it. If ye love me, keep my commandments. And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever; Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you. I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you. Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also. At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you."

This passage is proof that Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are ONE.
If you have seen Jesus, you have seen the Father.
The Father dwells in Jesus, Jesus dwells in the bosom of the Father. (John 1:18)
Jesus and the Father are one. Jesus, the Father, and the Holy Spirit are one.
This is quite obvious in this passage.
"He (the Father) will give you another Comforter (Holy Ghost)." Notice, the Comforter will dwell in them. Jesus says "he dwelleth with you", then he says "I shall be in you". He also says "I will come to you." Jesus will dwells in me, for the Holy Spirit dwells in me. For they are one. Jesus says "I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you." Jesus is one with the Holy Spirit, for if the Spirit dwells in you, Jesus dwells in you. And Jesus is one with the Father.

The Spirit is one with the Father.
Genesis 1:2 "And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."
Ephesians 4:30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.
Job 33:4 The Spirit of God hath made me, and the breath of the Almighty hath given me life.

So you see, the Holy Ghost, the Father, and the Son are one.

1 John 5:7 "For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one."