Cantleave,
I referred to this study in one of my posts yesterday. I concur.
Posts by DJS
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153IPCC Climate Change Report........
by cantleave in.....states that there is 95% certainty climate change is man made.
people are still saying we don't need to do anything about it.. if you were told there is a 95% risk of you dying if you don't change your diet, wouldn't you change your diet?.
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63
I made a huge mistake
by KariOtt inits been a tough 6 months for my jw hubby and myself.
next saturday is our anniversary.
i wasn't sure we would make it with the turbulance of the last 6 months.
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DJS
Fernando I hope you were joking. If you aren't a JW you aren't bound by any of their teachings or dysfunctions and you can buy or wear any da## thing you wish. Intentionally trying to annoy a loved one when it isn't necessary is a different thing. But you bought something for yourself that meant something to you. Sorry, but I would tell the juvenile to grow up.
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89
An Elder Reads CoC !!
by TTATTelder ini have recently joined the site.
i was just appointed an elder this summer.
i started discovering the ttatt (the truth about the truth) last year after putting a few things together myself concerning the leadership and then doing some research online.. i really enjoyed jwfacts.com, jwsurvey, and others.
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DJS
There will be lots of excellent advice from wise ones on this site as to how you may craft your exit. Based on what you describe (current, new elder, born=in generational, likely lots of family) your exit likely should be slow, methodicial and well planned. My common concern for you and ones like you is whether you can keep your new-found knowledge - and likely the derision for all things WT that comes with it - from entering your talks, counsel and private discussions with other JWs, including other elderes. If you have the mindset enabling you to do so, then a slow fade would be best by far. And it would allow you to gauge family and friends in the WT as you plot the next step of your exit.
However, most find it difficult to keep their anger/hurt/betrayal about what they have learned about the WT from oozing out. Being an elder, as you know, will cause you more grief than you can imagine if that starts occurring. OK, maybe you can imagine. You will likely start getting fewer speaking engagements and other perks of being an elder (such as being asked to be on Judicial Committees or being able to play in all of the raindeer games). You may be isolated, and the BOE may even begin to speak to others about you and any 'unsavory' ideas or thoughts you may have expressed. And this can drag your family and friends into meetings and you and yours can be isolated to a large degree.
I would recommend to anyone who doesn't have family in the WT, congregation responsibilities or other strong difficult- to- break ties to the Borg to leave ASAP and as quietly in the night as possible. Judicial committess and interrogations aren't fun. It happened to me and my family and it has happened to many others. Good luck
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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DJS
I've had lots of spiritual experiences and I'm not ashamed to say it. Let's see, her name was . . . .
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89
An Elder Reads CoC !!
by TTATTelder ini have recently joined the site.
i was just appointed an elder this summer.
i started discovering the ttatt (the truth about the truth) last year after putting a few things together myself concerning the leadership and then doing some research online.. i really enjoyed jwfacts.com, jwsurvey, and others.
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DJS
Welcome,
CoC was the final nail in the JW coffin for me. Hang on for the ride and let this site help you. Life, BTW, is amazing. Once you exit the JWs/WT and start living it, you will wonder WTF you ever saw in the cult.
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304
Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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DJS
Seraphim,
Let me give you an example. I've mentioned previously on this site that I developed, and taught for several years, a Comprehensive Emergency Management course which included natural disasters and terrorism as well. Each semester I made certain that the topic of global warming, now called climate change, was discussed in detail because if it is actually occuring can/will drastically impact emergencies. At no time did I share my personal beliefs about the topic and my students were tasked with presenting both sides of the argument in the semester long project they were assigned about the topic.
Through the years it has been obvious that each side of the debate hedged the data, liied about the data, used modeling which turned out to be flawed, etc., sometimes for political, economic, academic glory or gain. Nonetheless, it appears something is changing and that humans appear to be contributing. I don't know if this is ultimately a good thing or a bad thing or a thing. I suppose if you live on the coast or in areas like Colorado where they just got over a year's rain in one day you might re-think.
This morning (google CNN) there is a report indicating that worldwide scientists beleive there is a 95% likelihood humans are contributing. Still, many scientists have some misgivings about the data.
The ONLY profs or academics at my college who took an entrenched stand were hard right wing ultra conservative god and jesus loving xtians. And of course you know which side they were on; the Rush Limbaugh it's all a hoax side. Even after today's report, I still believe there are unanswered questions (as likely do all the contributing scientists). My point is I'm waiting on data that I feel hasn't been skewed or screwed. But the theists who were agin'' it (global warming/climate change) are still agin' it. They ain't budging. And for many of them the root cause analysis is their belief in god and rainbows (HE PROMISED US!).
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Do you detect an underlying sadness ?
by Phizzy inwhenever i talk to jw's, and even in some of the jw official videos, i detect a definite vibe of sadness coming off these people.. i am very sensitive to "atmospheres" and to peoples emotional state, you wouldn't think so, because more often than not i do not react to what i detect, i just let people get on with it.. but i do get this feeling that they are sad, probably because very, very, very deep down they realise that it is all false, maybe ?.
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DJS
Nearly a quarter of a century ago when I was a MS/elder several of us on the BOE used to state (with some black humor but with honesty) that half the JWs in our congretation were on anti-depressants and the other half needed to me. This has been going on for a long time. I guess it can be compared to a kid waiting, and waiting and waiting for Christmas morning and it never comes. But the kid keeps being told that Christmas is coming, not to give up.
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Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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DJS
Cantleave and Seraphim,
I don't mean to breaik in to a very compelling dialogue but I'm interested in something. Cantleave, what is your doctorate in? You have probably stated before so pardon my laziness for not querying the board to find it. And Seraphim you write in an eloquent and compelling manner. I'm impressed by your moderate tone and willingness to at least appear to listen to the arguments of non-theists. You seem intelligent I will say one thing. Non-theists simply can't do anything with an argument from theists that begins or ends with "I feel" or "I believe." That pretty much ends the conversation.
And Seraphim non-theists have likely struggled at least for a while with ID and Abiogenesis, not to mention having already tore down the wall that has been in place since they were born. Non-theists rarely if ever just woke up one day and said "I'm now an athiest." It is likely all the non-theists on this board were born into a theist house and taught from birth that god existed and the bible (koran, torah, etc.) was his inerrant word. So it isn't as if there aren't topics to truly discuss. But lwhat you and Cantleave are doing is a cross between a discussion and a debate - you talk about beliefs, the possibilities of the supernatural or supernatural phenomemon and Cantleave and others like him talk about things that can be proven or suggested by the scientific model. That will always happen. As much as your strongly held beliefs mean to you and the other theists, they will almost always annoy a non-theist.
And there is no real way to mesh those 2 things in debate. It will always become circular or entrenched. I have also noticed that theists are more likely than non-theists to hijack these types of threads, which is very annoying. It makes me want to leave this site. Strength in numbers I suppose. I am in awe of Cantleave, Cofty and Adamah who have the patience to go on and on and on, over and over and over, with these types of discussions. I don't.
And here is something else to consider. As the science evolves and grows, non-theists - who are likely looking forward to better and more science and clarification on all issues - will almost certainly make the necessary changes in their understanding. Non-theists know that science isn't perfect. They are much less likely, if at all, to become entrenced in a viewpoint (other than the scientific method), which is something I hear theists wrongly accuse. On the other hand, theists aren't going to change their minds typically no matter what.
Again, the tone of your discussions is admirable and compelling. Thank you for entertaining me early in the a.m. when I should be sleeping. Well done both.
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Are religionists and atheists on the same team?
by Fernando indo they both lead people away from god?.
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DJS
Cantleave, Cofty and Seraphim
What this discussion sounds like to me (sorry thought a little humor was needed).
www.youtube.com:watch%3Fv=HwBmPiOmEGQ
Hello, HAL. Do you read me, HAL?
HAL: Affirmative, Dave. I read you.
Dave: Open the pod bay doors, HAL.
HAL: I'm sorry, Dave. I'm afraid I can't do that.
Dave: What's the problem?
HAL: I think you know what the problem is just as well as I do.
Dave: What are you talking about, HAL?
HAL: This mission is too important for me to allow you to jeopardize it.
Dave: I don't know what you're talking about, HAL.
HAL: I know that you and Frank were planning to disconnect me, and I'm afraid that's something I cannot allow to happen.
Dave: Where the hell'd you get that idea, HAL?
HAL: Dave, although you took very thorough precautions in the pod against my hearing you, I could see your lips move.
Dave: Alright, HAL. I'll go in through the emergency airlock.
HAL: Without your space helmet, Dave, you're going to find that rather difficult.
Dave: HAL, I won't argue with you anymore. Open the doors.
HAL: Dave, this conversation can serve no purpose anymore. Goodbye -
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Musings about different types of atheist!
by Seraphim23 ina thought that occurs to me is that if one has the belief that all that is real is only explicable in terms of particles and forces, and that nothing exists that is not one of these, then good and bad doesnt exist either, the same would be true for any concept for that matter.
or perhaps it is only true when reduced to the level of matter and forces, but without the moral force, meaning and purpose that such a materialist only description would entail.
after all, if death is forever, which is materialist view, then what does it matter if a seventy or seven year old enters the grave?
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DJS
A chlld raised from birth, by ethical atheists, who has no external theist influences while growing up would more often than not result in an ethical (moral) person. And there is already very good data that suggests atheists are more "moral" than theists (don't want to argue, look it up here or Google it). The source of the data has been provided on this site previously. So the only argument available to theists given these two probabilities is that a 'god' coded such in the DNA. But the bible/god/jesus belief system regarding morals and ethical behavior wouldn't factor in this at all. You simply don't need god/jesus/bible to be a good person.
DNA is not static; it is dynamic. By natural selection we can change the DNA course. If ethical atheists became the prized 'match,' within a few generations we would see an evolutionary process occur that would, IMHO, be the best thing that ever happed to the human race. It will occur; it has begun. And the field of epigenetics, a rapidly evolving science, suggests DNA is even more fluidly and rapidly changed. I would suggest all lurkers to Google epigenetics. Fascinating stuff.
As I have said before, the potential tied up in our DNA is enormous. Religion and theism are holding us back.