Password,
Your experience is deeply touching. Thank you for sharing it, and good luck to you on your journey.
Posts by DJS
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49My Story: from JW Elder to Born Again Christian to Agnostic
by passwordprotected ini first posted here on 3rd june 2008. at the time i was an elder, appointed the previous october, i was 36 and i was a born-in.
at the time i'd become disillusioned with the society due to the governing body's letter explaining why the book study in private homes was being abolished.
april 2008 saw me start questioning this decision, privately of course, and this eventually led me to this site, to jwfacts and to many youtube videos, all of which began to errode my faith in the leaders of the organisation.. in july 2008, having discussed my doubts with my wife, i attended the district convention, deciding to give the society one last chance to convince me it was the truth.
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HOW TO AVOID THE A-HOLE SPIRIT OF SOME HERE...
by DATA-DOG in1) take meds for your megalomania and delusions of grandeur.. .
suggestions welcome.. .
dd.
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DJS
Phizzy and ADCMS,
Yes and yes. Several years ago when I was completing my undergraduate degree, one of my profs - in a relgious course I was taking - made the following statement: "The only place belief in god is in short supply is in a seminary." He had a PhD in divinity, served at several churches in various capacities and was essentially an atheist.
He was using hyperbole to illustrate what I have been saying for a while. Seminary students, one would think, would be most inclined to believe in god. However, they may enter seminary as strong feelers/believers with some (one sided) knowledge about the topic, but after many years of studying and researching all sides of the topic, many of the students end up just like many of the atheists on this site.
That's what I continue to try to get across to theists, but without much success. Once someone is entrenched based on feelings and beliefs, which are the two lowest rungs on our evolutionary scale, there isn't much that can change that. Most if not all of the arguments revolve around this very simple matter. A lot of theists firmly plant their feet, fist their hands and become even more entenched. And when they can't win any arguments - and they never will -because faith/belief cannot be proven and the primary source is the bible (I mean, really?), they resort to calling us arrogant and mean.
This is the primary reason why almost every OP on this site fairly quickly separates itself into the theist/non-theist camps, even when the topic is secular, social in nature. It's the process by which theists 'make up their minds' that is the main problem.
I will most certainly believe in god whenever she clearly presents herself. As Dubs we prided ourselves in our study and 'knowledge.' Until many of us discovered it was based on a faulty premise/source, the 'knowledge' was completey one sided and shallow, and it was supported by a 'spin' machine of historic proportions - the WTB&TS.
Feellings and beliefs are fine. Lack of self control in locating the keyboard isn't. It will result in the ready deconstruction of the argument, and as Phiz states, they should expect " . . .derision, ridicule and lampooning. . " All of that could be fixed by avoiding the keyboard.
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Treatment of DFed family members. JW.org FAQ vs Nov 2014 WT
by EndofMysteries inon jw.org faq, " do jehovahs witnesses shun former members of their religion?, those who were baptized as jehovahs witnesses but no longer preach to others, perhaps even drifting away from association with fellow believers, are not shunned.....what of a man who is disfellowshipped but whose wife and children are still jehovahs witnesses?
the religious ties he had with his family change, but blood ties remain.
the marriage relationship and normal family affections and dealings continue.".
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DJS
NavyTown,
Let's hope some of the fence sitters will wake up, but this is typical Borgian monologue. It seems to answer the questions a few have posed recently about whether the Dark Lords would loosen their death grip on the rank and file and become a kinder, gentler Borganization. End of time cults double down with more of the harsh control, eat their own (paranoid delusionial) and circle the wagons (Satan and his hordes are a comin' after 'em), when pressured or when they feel threatened, and they likely are feeling a lot of that right now. Good for them.
The Dark Lords are closer to Jim Jones and Heaven's Gate than they are to any mainstream belief system. They have been and still are an end-of-time drama princess crying shrilly in the night about pending doom. The narcissism fueling the Dark Lords drives them to more of the same draconian controls. The rank and file buy off on this stuff because they hope that they are just oh so close to salvation. Look at how bad the world is!!! (Don't pay any attention to the good stuff). And they will be the only ones making it through!! Isn't that special.
The Dark Lords love power and control more than they love sheeple. The numbers and increase merely fuel the narcissism and reinforces the power and control. They likely love power and control more than growth/increase, as they can spin this as a separation work of the wheat and the chaff and blame that Satan guy. Increase is proof that Jah is with them. Decrease is proof that Jah is with them. Persecution is proof that Jah is with them. Peace is proof that Jah is with them (that peace and security BS). Money is proof that Jah is with them.
But a lack of money????? Their Achilles heel.
I doubt they love power and control more than money, which is the only thing that would possibly result in a kinder gentler Borganization. If the Dubs really want to get their attention, stop donating.
Anyway, NavyTown, I like your posts. Thanks.
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HOW TO AVOID THE A-HOLE SPIRIT OF SOME HERE...
by DATA-DOG in1) take meds for your megalomania and delusions of grandeur.. .
suggestions welcome.. .
dd.
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DJS
BOTR,
If the shoe doesn't fit you don't wear it. I am not of course talking about all those responding to these types of OPs and comments, only those making the definitive and wrong statements. I respect and like you and your comments. You and I have been on the same side on many OPs. All I am asking of you is that you use some of the fair mindedness and toughness in this matter that you show when dealing with legal matters and those showing a rush to judgment against others unfairly.
Definitive statements made without regard to the actual facts is dumbassedness, regardless of who it is. I don't put you in that category.
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HOW TO AVOID THE A-HOLE SPIRIT OF SOME HERE...
by DATA-DOG in1) take meds for your megalomania and delusions of grandeur.. .
suggestions welcome.. .
dd.
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DJS
Paris,
Ditto to ADCMS,
All we are doing is refuting dumbass statements made by theists. Of course there are a lot of very intelligent theists and a lot of stupid atheists. We continue to cite very good empirical data which illustrate strong correlations. Nothing more. As I have done everytime, the data suggests strong correlations, not direct correlations or cause/effect.
If you could read you would understand that. I will stop posting this kind of material when you and the other theists stop making dumb-ass definitive statements which have absolutely no basis in fact.
If you have a problem with the individuals who conduct theses studies or the methodologies they employ to synthesize the data and draw conclusions or findings from it, then I suggest you spend your time dismantling it instead of posting tepid, immature attacks on those posting the data. Otherwise, the best option for you - and those like you - would be to show some X-tian humility and aviod the keyboard. Or not. The more you and those like you spew nonsense the more you validate the research. I will repeat: A LOT of theists are very intelligent, and a lot of atheists are morons. The data suggests strong correlations.
You stop and I will stop. It's simple.
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HOW TO AVOID THE A-HOLE SPIRIT OF SOME HERE...
by DATA-DOG in1) take meds for your megalomania and delusions of grandeur.. .
suggestions welcome.. .
dd.
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DJS
Outlaw,
Agreed. I'm no zealot, except for life. This forum is my only experience at such things in the past 2 decades. I also agree that both sides start things, but - and you can check my posting history - I avoid theist and scientific dicussions. I care nothing for the former and know little about the latter.
My only point is that the common refrain from the theists about how hopeless, evil, cold, sterile and immoral I am kinda sorta annoys me. Like clockwork, they arrive and spew the same sentiments. Some who have been on this site for a long time and know better also spew the same nonsense.
If the same broad based and erroneous statements were made about blacks, gays, Jews or theists, I would jump in with support. And the former college prof in me grates at definitive statements without empirical data to support them.
Thanks Outlaw.
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HOW TO AVOID THE A-HOLE SPIRIT OF SOME HERE...
by DATA-DOG in1) take meds for your megalomania and delusions of grandeur.. .
suggestions welcome.. .
dd.
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DJS
BOTR and OUTLAW,
You guys ususally make sense, but not this time. The theists start this crap. Every few weeks another one comes on this site spewing nonsense about how immoral, unethical, cold, blah blah freaking blah atheists are. The facts say otherwise. I/we wouldn't post this stuff if y'all didn't start it.
Why don't you all jump in when theists post such nonsense and set the theists straight? These are facts supported by very good analysis conducted by educated, credible individuals.
All we/I am doing is defending myself and other atheists from ridiculous, broad based statements which are 100 percent inaccurate. I will stop when they stop.
Both of you miss the point on this one. Theists are theists in large part because they do not think rationally, objectively and analytically. We say that all of the time; the data suggests the same. You both should have avoided the keyboard on this one. But go ahead and call me arrogant. But the man/woman in the mirror looking back at you is the only problem as far as this matter is concerned.
Hard to be, used to be elders?? Take you to the back room? What utter nonsense. Facts are facts. Get mad and say ugly things when you can't win an argument or a discussion. That's theists. We/I don't give a flying you know what about your feelings and beliefs. Take them outside - or to the back room - and play with them by yourself.
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HOW TO AVOID THE A-HOLE SPIRIT OF SOME HERE...
by DATA-DOG in1) take meds for your megalomania and delusions of grandeur.. .
suggestions welcome.. .
dd.
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DJS
One more (I have tons of this stuff). And as a reminder and as I have prefaced each time we (me and you theists) talk about this, no atheist will suggest that there is a direct correlation or cause/effect between atheism and the positive data, but, as the researchers continue to discover, there is a strong correlation.
I will stop when you stop, Feelers/Believers.
Journal of Religion & Society Volume 7 (2005)
ISSN 1522-5658
Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies (2005) (Off Site PDF) by Gregory S. Paul
In this landmark study, Gregory S. Paul compares rates of religiosity and societal dysfunction between 18 democratic nations in the developed world in order to "test whether high rates of belief in and worship of a creator are necessary for high levels of social health." Paul finds that "in almost all regards the highly secular democracies consistently enjoy low rates of societal dysfunction," demonstrating that widespread religious belief does not improve societal health, and that moreover there is a positive correlation between a first-world country's level of religiosity (e.g., the degree of confidence that a traditional monotheistic God exists) and level of social dysfunction (e.g., homicide rates).
“There is evidence that within the U.S. strong disparities in religious belief versus acceptance of evolution are correlated with similarly varying rates of societal dysfunction, the strongly theistic, anti-evolution south and mid-west having markedly worse homicide, mortality, STD, youth pregnancy, marital and related problems than the northeast where societal conditions, secularization, and acceptance of evolution approach European norms."
"Indeed, the data examined in this study demonstrates that only the more secular, pro-evolution democracies have, for the first time in history, come closest to achieving practical “cultures of life” that feature low rates of lethal crime, juvenile-adult mortality, sex related dysfunction, and even abortion. The least theistic secular developed democracies such as Japan, France, and Scandinavia have been most successful in these regards. The non-religious, pro-evolution democracies contradict the dictum that a society cannot enjoy good conditions unless most citizens ardently believe in a moral creator. The widely held fear that a Godless citizenry must experience societal disaster is therefore refuted. Contradicting these conclusions requires demonstrating a positive link between theism and societal conditions in the first world with a similarly large body of data – a doubtful possibility in view of the observable trends."
2005, the Kripke Center Study “Cross-National Correlations of Quantifiable Societal Health with Popular Religiosity and Secularism in the Prosperous Democracies"
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HOW TO AVOID THE A-HOLE SPIRIT OF SOME HERE...
by DATA-DOG in1) take meds for your megalomania and delusions of grandeur.. .
suggestions welcome.. .
dd.
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DJS
From Google Scholar (I have the study - you can also purchase it). This is web overview.
The Relation Between Intelligence and Religiosity
A Meta-Analysis and Some Proposed Explanations
- 1 University of Rochester, NY, USA
- 2 Northeastern University, Boston, MA, USA
- Miron Zuckerman, Department of Clinical and Social Sciences in Psychology, University of Rochester, PO Box 270266, Meliora 431, Rochester, NY 14627, USA. Email: [email protected]
Abstract
A meta-analysis of 63 studiesshowed a significant negative association between intelligence and religiosity. The association was stronger for college students and the general population than for participants younger than college age; it was also stronger for religious beliefs than religious behavior. For college students and the general population, means of weighted and unweighted correlations between intelligence and the strength of religious beliefs ranged from −.20 to −.25 (mean r = −.24). Three possible interpretations were discussed. First, intelligent people are less likely to conform and, thus, are more likely to resist religious dogma. Second, intelligent people tend to adopt an analytic (as opposed to intuitive) thinking style, which has been shown to undermine religious beliefs. Third, several functions of religiosity, including compensatory control, self-regulation, self-enhancement, and secure attachment, are also conferred by intelligence. Intelligent people may therefore have less need for religious beliefs and practices.
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HOW TO AVOID THE A-HOLE SPIRIT OF SOME HERE...
by DATA-DOG in1) take meds for your megalomania and delusions of grandeur.. .
suggestions welcome.. .
dd.
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DJS
Ok, I said I was through. I lied. This is the first of many posts on the atheist/theist discussioins which are always initiated by theists (feelers/believers) making broad based statements regarding atheists that we are all baby killing whores. Nothing could be further from the truth, but that is in aligment with the theists being feelers/believers and avoiding using their brains (I know, it hurts when you use a muscle that has never been used before). Their lack of control in avoiding the keyboard is my primary objection with theists.
From a recent article - the data is easily verified.
The godless commit less crime, have longer marriages and are more highly educated than almost any other group in America.
As referenced by ADCMS: According to Federal Bureau of Prisons data, the number of responding people in prison acknowledging they were Catholic was 39 percent; Protestant, 35 percent; Muslim, 7 percent; Jewish, 2 percent; and godless, 0.2 percent (20 percent did not respond). Since the number of godless is estimated to be 10 percent of the general population, all things being equal you would expect their prison population to be 10 percent.
If, as many people assume, the godless do not lead moral lives, you would expect the number to be greater than 10 percent. The fact that the actual number is 50 times less than expected can lead to only one of two conclusions: either the godless commit less crime than the religious or they’re too smart to get caught very often.
According to a Barna Research Group report, fundamentalist Christians have the highest divorce rate, followed by Jews and Baptists. The godless are tied with Catholics and Lutherans for the lowest divorce rate. It seems that some groups that claim to follow the Bible most strictly are not putting their money where their mouths are. The godless who are thought to be without morals seem to take their vows more seriously.
According to a Pew Forum on Religion and Public Life Survey, the least-educated Americans are Jehovah’s Witnesses (THAT certainly explains a lot), followed by black Protestants and fundamentalist Christians. The most highly educated are reformed Jews, followed by Unitarian Universalists and the godless.
Some groups seem to like their flocks ignorant so that pastors’ interpretations of God’s edicts are not questioned. Other groups prize scholarship and achieve more in their lives here on Earth.
(I have the data on this and will post it soon) In fact, a review of worldwide studies found that criminality and religion go hand in hand. The countries with the most religious people have the highest crime rates, highest sexually transmitted diseases and the highest teen pregnancy rates.
This is also true in the United States. The more religious a state’s population, the lower the level of education and income, the higher the crime, STD and teen pregnancy rates - and just about any other dysfunction. More data to follow.