Posts by DJS

274

Indiana "Religious Freedom" (right to discriminate)

by Simon in

sickening to see the photo of the religious zealots all stood around the governor signing into law the right for people to discriminate against others (gay, lesbian, trans-gender) based purely on religious dogma.. if religious people want those freedoms then the can't have it both ways - they cannot complain if *they* are discriminated against.. "sorry, we don't like zionists, get out".

"oh, it's some special mass and you can't work your shift?

you're fired!"..

DJS

""Frankly the lawsuit is unconstitutional. The constitution guarantees Americans the right to live and work in a manor that's consistent with their religious beliefs," said Kristen Waggoner, Stutzman's lawyer."

Ms. Waggoner can't find one case determined by regional or SCOTUS that supports the tripe she stated. Not one. Her comment sounds like something a person unfamiliar with the law would say based on their feelings.

It is childish and immature to wish you could do what you want to do regardless of the reality.

The Courts: You can't discriminate Ms. X-tian based on race or sexual orientation. You must serve these people with your for profit commercial business regardless of your religious beliefs.

Ms. X-tian: But I want to. I should be able to. It's my business. I should be able to run it the way I want to. I want to. It's my business. I should be able to do what I want to.

The Courts: I understand Ms. X-tian. Let me repeat back what I think you are saying. It's difficult to accurately hear you because of the pacifier in your mouth but I think what you are saying is: Wah… Wah…. Wah.

THAT's what this conversation thread is about. The rationals continue to point to ethics, inclusiveness and fair mindedness, not to mention empirical data and the evidence (decades of court opinions in support of the US Constitution). The irrationals continue to whine about their feelings and what they want, not to mention how unethical, unfair and bigoted their behavior is. I have three things to say in response. Wah….. Wah….. Wah.

274

Indiana "Religious Freedom" (right to discriminate)

by Simon in

sickening to see the photo of the religious zealots all stood around the governor signing into law the right for people to discriminate against others (gay, lesbian, trans-gender) based purely on religious dogma.. if religious people want those freedoms then the can't have it both ways - they cannot complain if *they* are discriminated against.. "sorry, we don't like zionists, get out".

"oh, it's some special mass and you can't work your shift?

you're fired!"..

DJS

That's the problem with theists, well at least one of the problems. So many of you make every life decision and take every stand on every issue based on your feelings. What if the KKK asked me to bake a cake for them? I would ask how big and how many? What if the KH needed my Lights or Lawn Care or to Clean their toilets? I would say include all of these and I will give you a multi-service discount.

I'm just surprised any of you feeler/perceivers had enough damn sense to escape the Dark Lords' clutches. Clam, if the JOP is working for the government, he or she doesn't have the right to refuse marrying gays. As part of any government position there is an understanding that you will uphold the tenets of the US Constitution. They can of course sue to see if the courts will uphold their refusal.

I've tried being a kinder, gentler DJS. It is a challenge at times.

Theists, I am out here for you. You don't know what it's like to be ME out here for YOU. It is an up-at-dawn, pride-swallowing siege that I will never fully tell you about, ok? Help me... help you. Help me, help you.

Help me .. help you.

274

Indiana "Religious Freedom" (right to discriminate)

by Simon in

sickening to see the photo of the religious zealots all stood around the governor signing into law the right for people to discriminate against others (gay, lesbian, trans-gender) based purely on religious dogma.. if religious people want those freedoms then the can't have it both ways - they cannot complain if *they* are discriminated against.. "sorry, we don't like zionists, get out".

"oh, it's some special mass and you can't work your shift?

you're fired!"..

DJS

Clambake,

Please provide references or a url. I found this:

CAMBRIDGE, Ontario, September 11, 2012 (LifeSiteNews.com) - A Church of Christ minister who has been responsible for civic marriage ceremonies at Cambridge city hall for the past 15 years is facing the axe if she doesn’t agree to perform same-sex “marriages.”

This minister is working for the government, performing civil marriages. Is this what you are referring to? If so, this isn't a church. She is wrong; they are right.

274

Indiana "Religious Freedom" (right to discriminate)

by Simon in

sickening to see the photo of the religious zealots all stood around the governor signing into law the right for people to discriminate against others (gay, lesbian, trans-gender) based purely on religious dogma.. if religious people want those freedoms then the can't have it both ways - they cannot complain if *they* are discriminated against.. "sorry, we don't like zionists, get out".

"oh, it's some special mass and you can't work your shift?

you're fired!"..

DJS

The gay couple were right; the florist wrong. She should have lost. Have you not been reading ANY of the posts re: what a constitutional democracy means? What 'for the common good' means? What 'utilitarian' means? And If I was in a commercial for profit business I would provide whatever legal services the KH asked. Nor do I care what any of these X-tians 'feel.' The main reason is because I'm in a for profit business; the second reason being I don't make my life decisions on feelings and the third reason being that I understand what type of country I live in. We answered your emotional whining when we referenced the KKK bakery case that the KKK won a couple of years ago, as they should have.

One more time: the SCOTUS and regional courts have never, to my knowledge, supported commercial for profit businesses in discrimination cases such as these. That's because they follow the US Constitution.

If you can't do anything but rehash nonsense, this board would be better served if you avoided the keyboard. The ONLY reason Indiana, GA, AK and other states are passing these laws is because the right wing fundie X-tians have lost a lot of court cases lately on this topic and because they can - right wing fundies comprise a dis-proportionate percentage of state houses and senates. It's when they get to the national level where they have problems. Ask Indiana's governor.

28

Newbies , Are We Seeing An Accelerated Increase? This Past Year ? Newbies Feel free To Respond Please .

by smiddy in

jw
friends

is it just me or does anyone else see more newbies joining this site this past year and especially in the last few months .. we would love to welcome you with genuine friendship ,support ,encouragement ,a place to vent ,and not judge you.. you have the freedom to express whatever view you like and you won`t be kicked off the board.. and to learn more about the "truth" about the truth , you will not hear at a kingdom hall .. smiddy.

DJS

Bonsai: "I think I've learned enough at this point in my life to know that I really don't know anything."

I had the same experience when I finally realized the Borg was all a bunch of woo. Don Henley's lyrics helped me through the night:

"Everything I thought I knew I'm learning again."

Realizing that I had been fooled for so long, and thinking to myself that I thought I was a fairly smart guy, was one of the best lessons I've ever had in life. Maybe the best. Good luck on your journey.

43

Atheism

by Jonathan Drake in

jw
friends

recent events and book reads (one suggested by cofty i believe- thank you) have lead me to the only logical and acceptable conclusion:.

there is no god.. simple logical reasoning: matter can neither me created or destroyed.

so the amount of mass in the universe is constant.

DJS

JD,

Welcome to the club!! We've been expecting you. (Darn, we really need a secret atheist handshake or something)

67

How do you feel about religion as a whole?

by FatherFirst in

it just seems to me religion in general primarily makes truly bad people worse, not genuinly good people better; and in many cases has even made good people do bad things in the name of their religion.

just curious, a personal poll if you will.

what are you guys' current views on religion as a whole?

DJS

When I look back at human history I can understand why religion evolved. When I look at the current human condition I am amazed that religion continues to have such a strong hold, but a hold that is diminishing fairly quickly in many places. When I look in the future I see a time where religion will find a nice little niche for those inclined. The planet must evolve toward secularism and an evidence based society or else we will remain stuck in the year 2015 (BCE) forever.

Religion is the problem; it will never be the solution. John Lennon was a visionary.

11

What's with the hijab?

by jws in

jw
friends

the hijab is one of a few headdresses worn by muslim women.

from what i can tell, it is supposed to hide the femininity of the woman.

because i'm sure as a muslim, it's going to all be the woman's fault if a man acts improperly due to attraction.. i don't agree with it, but hey, it's their religion and it doesn't hurt others, so have at it if you want to wear it.. let's face it.

DJS

Different strokes, but one of the premises of the OP, that Muslim men are weak and pathetic and simply cannot control their urges, is true. Women are blamed for a host of assaults and objectionable behavior based on this premise. Also, having spent some time in the Middle East, one thing I can tell you about the women who wear burkas, Well, two things actually.

You can tell the social status of the woman even before she gets into her black Mercedes based on the quality and fit of the burka. The burkas of the rich ones and those attached to oil $ are made of exquisite high quality cloth. And the fully clad burka females - where the ONLY female presence is a thin visor - have the most freaking awesome amazing incredible beautiful and sensual EYES. You might try to hide the woman under the burka, but you can never really hide the woman under the burka.

274

Indiana "Religious Freedom" (right to discriminate)

by Simon in

sickening to see the photo of the religious zealots all stood around the governor signing into law the right for people to discriminate against others (gay, lesbian, trans-gender) based purely on religious dogma.. if religious people want those freedoms then the can't have it both ways - they cannot complain if *they* are discriminated against.. "sorry, we don't like zionists, get out".

"oh, it's some special mass and you can't work your shift?

you're fired!"..

DJS

From the Prof (now I will remove myself from my soapbox until this topic comes up again)

One of the most common and misleading economic myths in the US, most often espoused by Libertarians, Far R. politicians, Separatists and some religious fundies, which comprise some of the more vocal responses to this OP), is the idea that government rules and regulations only “interfere” with the natural beneficial workings of the market. Nothing could be further from the truth. Our “free” market system would simply not exist as we know it without the presence of an active government that creates and maintains the rules and conditions that allow it to operate efficiently. To summarize:

By the end of the 19th century, the government concluded that major corporations such as Standard Oil, Carnegie Steel and Union Pacific Railroad had grown too powerful. As a result, laws were created to offset this power. The Sherman Antitrust Act of 1890 outlawed monopolies. The Food and Drug Administration was created in 1904 and vested with litigation of companies that broke new purity laws. The Federal Trade Commission was created in 1914 to regulate competition among American companies.

The Security and Exchange Act of 1934, The Wagner Act of 1935 (labor relations and unions) The Fair Labor Standards Act of 1938 (national minimum wage) all were implemented to level playing fields and bring about more fairness to the economy. Without these and other Acts, the rich would have become richer, the poor, poorer, and the US wouldn’t have a thriving middle class. As I’ve stated before, a Darwinian survival of the fittest economy may be ruthlessly efficient, but it is also ruthlessly indifferent to inequality and suffering.

There are many other rules and regulations passed by the government that make business possible. Under a purely capitalist system, none of these laws or entities should exist. Essentially, each act limited markets by granting the federal government the power to regulate business. The US and most W nations have a managed economy -- by definition, a non-market economy since it doesn't exist solely on supply and demand. Strong government control of the economy is a Keynsian model, whereas Milton Friedman, darling of the supply siders and Libertarians, believed that government should stay out of everything. Both of these models of course should be employed for a diverse strong economy.

Some believe the Keynsian model is too present today; I agree in principle, but I have zero trust in business leaders to do the right thing for everyone. Most would greedily extract the last drop of oil from the planet for profit regardless of the impact it had on the environment, the economy or global warfare and strife, for example, without strong controls.

274

Indiana "Religious Freedom" (right to discriminate)

by Simon in

sickening to see the photo of the religious zealots all stood around the governor signing into law the right for people to discriminate against others (gay, lesbian, trans-gender) based purely on religious dogma.. if religious people want those freedoms then the can't have it both ways - they cannot complain if *they* are discriminated against.. "sorry, we don't like zionists, get out".

"oh, it's some special mass and you can't work your shift?

you're fired!"..

DJS

August 23, 2013

A Georgia court has ruled in favor of Marshall Saxby, the Grand Wizard of a local KKK chapter, in a lawsuit stemming from two years ago when a local bakery denied him service. The three judge panel concluded unanimously that the bakery had violated civil rights laws by discriminating against Saxby when they refused to sell him a cake for his organization’s annual birthday party. Elaine Bailey, who owns Bailey Bakeries, refused to bake a cake for the ceremony because it violated her religious beliefs.

Saxby filed the lawsuit claiming that Bailey’s refusal of service was discriminatory against his religious beliefs.

The KKK has re- branded itself, in many places, as a ‘loving’ X-tian org. trying to ensure white people are treated fairly – a white version of the NAACP if you will. Like it or not they operate legally. A business refusing to serve the KKK will likely lose similar lawsuits. What a business can do is to refuse to include hate speech on a cake, such as use of the “N” word or depictions of racist actions, for examples. Businesses have a legal and constitutional right to have the type of business they desire (a family oriented business can’t be forced to sell porn, for example, or a restaurant can require clothing or ban certain types of clothing). We have discussed these things before. Case law supporting businesses in these areas is firmly established. What a business cannot do is to refuse to serve someone based on purely discriminatory reasons when there is no compelling business interest served.

Contrary to what some of you feel, this isn’t a complicated area. Your prejudices and biases keep some of you from understanding that we live in a constitutional democracy based on utilitarian principles (for the common good), and your religious or individual rights you think you have end at this demarcation point. The courts have had to establish this over the decades, based on the Constitution. Although not perfect, over time they have typically gotten things spot on. If some of you paid attention during HS Civics class or the world around you for the past 100 plus years you would already know these things. Or learn to google. But the very first thing you will need to do to accomplish any of that is to lose your prejudices and your biases and actually think about and read about things that do not confirm those biases.