Posts by logansrun

35

Has your relationship with Jesus changed?

by Honesty in

since you either left the organisation or started to objectively examine wts doctrine.

logansrun

When I left the JWs I also left any belief/faith in the Bible. Nevertheless, I've always been captivated by the Judeo-Christian religion and have done a fair amount of study in the historical-critical method of looking at scripture. The Watchtower and Insight book was replaced by the works of Elaine Pagels, Bart Ehrman, John Crossan, etc...

I honestly don't know why I can't just "give it up." Sometimes I feel that there is some core of spiritual truth behind it all. In the studying I've done, Jesus was an apocalyptic preacher who did some form of faith-healing and felt that the Kingdom of God was soon to appear within the nation of Israel with a Son of Man figure ruling as God's appointment. The synoptic gospels, according to this view, are much more reliable than John, which contains almost no words of the historical Jesus. (If someone could refute some of this, please do.)

So, Jesus wanted a perfect government of peace, justice and brotherhood. Isn't it the thought that counts? Can we use his example in trying to bring some of those ideals to fruition on the earth right now, in the tradition of the Christian-socialist Reinhold Niebuhr?

Or is "liberal Christianity" dead in the US?

B.

53

Your personal philosophy

by Terry in

jw
friends

i like ayn rand's simple variation on the usual philosophy breakdown of:.

1.metaphysics (objective reality).

3.ethics (enlightened self-interest).

logansrun

Freedom Fighter,

I'm not sure what LT is talking about...I'm a philosophical wanna-be!

Well, as for texts, that really depends on your interests and the modules (class?) requirements. Is it for a research paper? Do you need original source material, or can it be a secondary source?

Plato's The Republic is probably one of the most popular and most commented on texts there is. If I were you I would go to the bookstore and peruse the philsophy section. Look for those really thin books like "Kant...for Beginners" or "Introducing Nietzsche." You can read one of those in about an hour. That should get you started on where your interest will take you.

My interest in philosophy has gone somewhat backwards; I started my readings with more modern philosophers like Nietzsche and Sartre and now have taken more of an interest in ancient philosophers like Thomas Aquinas and, heavens, St. Augustine.

Hope that helps!

As for my "pesonal philosophy"...I honestly can say that I'm in somewhat of a transition. I started out (after the JWs) as an extreme materialist and, what I may call, naive empiricist. I was attracted to all the "godless" philosophers, and my understanding of ethics was that of "enlightened" self interest. (There are many philosophical and psychological problems with this form of ethics...especially when one gets into "lifeboat" situations).

I've become somewhat more conservative when it comes to my value system. I still do not really believe in a personal God, but am much more open to the idea than I once was. I'm inclined to think of ethics as being about virtue and character, in the Aristotelean sense. Politically I'm both conservative and liberal.

B.

121

Who Was Shocked By the Watchtower UN NGO Scandal?

by AlanF in

.

i'd like to get comments from people about whether and how much they were shocked, surprised, or otherwise bothered by the watchtower society's becoming an associated non-governmental organization (ngo).. note that i'd like to see these comments because they might lead to some interesting publicity, so please comment accordingly.. alanf

logansrun

It was slightly disturbing to me (I was a doubting JW when I found out), but I didn't find it nearly as hypocritical as some ex-JWs do who make it out as if the Society wanted to influence decisions made by the UN Security Council. I actually do think the primary reason why they were involved with the UN was to use their library, although that alone is a little disturbing to a JW who was told to have nothing to do whatsoever with politics.

B.

11

A feeling of community

by logansrun in

jw
friends

for bettor or worse -- and it definitely seems it was worse for some here -- the witness religion provides a sense of community for it's members.

humans are social creatures; we evolved to be part of a community.

there are practical, emotional, intellectual and, if you want to use the word, spiritual, benefits to having some sense of group belonging.

logansrun

James,

I have heard it said that if one is of a pure mind (meaning, not on an ego trip) and goes deeper introspectively, there will be a greater sense of community -- indeed, a sense of oneness and sympathetic understanding with everything (obviously, including humanity). What starts off as a spritual practice of detachment, becomes a sense of greater attachment with humanity (though, not a selfish attachment). Witness Ghandi, for instance.

I have not experienced this though...yet.

B.

11

A feeling of community

by logansrun in

jw
friends

for bettor or worse -- and it definitely seems it was worse for some here -- the witness religion provides a sense of community for it's members.

humans are social creatures; we evolved to be part of a community.

there are practical, emotional, intellectual and, if you want to use the word, spiritual, benefits to having some sense of group belonging.

logansrun

For bettor or worse -- and it definitely seems it was worse for some here -- the Witness religion provides a sense of community for it's members. Humans are social creatures; we evolved to be part of a community. There are practical, emotional, intellectual and, if you want to use the word, spiritual, benefits to having some sense of group belonging. It's written in our genes to feel this way, in my understanding of human nature.

But, alas, ever since the Enlightenment there has been a turn towards the individual as central to human life. There have been enormous benefits to this shift; much human progress has come out of thinking and acting against rigid authoritarian structures. Nevertheless, this indivdiualism has come at a great price. With the emancipation of the individual has come the loss of community. Religion once provided a real social identity for people, but only in sects like the JWs or in the most conservative brands of Evangelicalism do we find any sense of meaningful group affiliation. Many people have become lost -- alienated -- in the sea of the large city -- or the urban sprawl of a Suburbia. With smaller families, both extended and nuclear -- thanks in part to birth control -- many people have simply lost any sense of community that our ancestors found comfort and enjoyment in. There is a book about this phenomenon that I haven't read but the title tells it all..."Bowling Alone."

For many ex-Witnesses this lack of community and social identity is exacerbated by the fact that we have been ostracized by family and friends and have essentially had any sense of personal-communal-family history obliterated. Although I still feel a sense of continuity through my parents (who don't shun me) and my life-long best friend (who is essentially not a JW), the longing for a sense of community is deep within me. Unfortunately, for all it's worth, this board can only go so far.

My question to you is: Does this situation -- not jus mine or yours, but of modern man in general -- make sense to you? Have you found a sense of community, be it secular or religious?

Feedback?

Bradley

74

Do those that shun us not love us?

by logansrun in

it is a mistake for former jehovah's witnesses to think that just because they are shunned by friends and family, they are no longer loved.

isn't shunning a horrible experience, one borne from twisted psychological reasoning?

mandated shunning from a powerful and misguided religious organization is a great sin against both the person shunned and those who are obliged, yes obliged, to shun them.

logansrun

I knew you were going to being parent disciplining child up. There are non-abusive ways to discipline a child. Shunning is abusive. Abusing someone is always wrong.

I agree. That's not the point of my thread. Someone can do wrong to someone else and still love them.

I guess beating a child to the point of hospitalization is love in your world-view as well.

No, nor is shunning loving. Again, my point is that just because someone shuns -- or beats -- another does not mean that they do not have any love inside them for the object of their punishment. Beating someone to the point of hospitalization and shunning are two very, very different things, I might add.

Second, it's not comparing apples and oranges to being. It's called reducto absurdium (spelling) -- reduction to the absurd. It's useful for showing fallacies in a line of reasoning.

The use of a reductio ad absurdum is useful only to the extent that it is a correct analogy and is realistic. Your analogy (so-called protecting child molesters is the same as shunning out of misplaced love) is an incorrect analogy since any "protection" of the molesters is for the sake of the organization, whereas shunning is, ostensibly, for the benefit of the shunnee. (I don't believe that it is proper to really say the organization "protects" molesters, only that in certain instances they are more concerned about organizational reputation than any possible future act of molestation).

B.

74

Do those that shun us not love us?

by logansrun in

it is a mistake for former jehovah's witnesses to think that just because they are shunned by friends and family, they are no longer loved.

isn't shunning a horrible experience, one borne from twisted psychological reasoning?

mandated shunning from a powerful and misguided religious organization is a great sin against both the person shunned and those who are obliged, yes obliged, to shun them.

logansrun

Blondie,

Do you really think that child molestation is a fair analogy to simply refusing to speak with someone?

10

Anyone read "Scripture Twisting: Twenty Ways the Cults Misread the Bible"?

by Check_Your_Premises in

here is the link.

scripture twisting: twenty ways the cults misread the bible .

i was hoping to find some good info on how different bible based cults use the exact same verses in the exact same ways to instill fear in the members.

logansrun

A lot of the books about how "cults" twist the Bible are written by extremely biased Evangelicals who are as apt to cry "heresy" as a JW is to cry "apostate."

Biblical exegesis is a very complex subject with about as many different opinions as there are denominations.

B.

74

Do those that shun us not love us?

by logansrun in

it is a mistake for former jehovah's witnesses to think that just because they are shunned by friends and family, they are no longer loved.

isn't shunning a horrible experience, one borne from twisted psychological reasoning?

mandated shunning from a powerful and misguided religious organization is a great sin against both the person shunned and those who are obliged, yes obliged, to shun them.

logansrun

Wow. I just have to say sometimes I am amazed at people's short-sightedness and resentment.

Good night.

Bradley

74

Do those that shun us not love us?

by logansrun in

it is a mistake for former jehovah's witnesses to think that just because they are shunned by friends and family, they are no longer loved.

isn't shunning a horrible experience, one borne from twisted psychological reasoning?

mandated shunning from a powerful and misguided religious organization is a great sin against both the person shunned and those who are obliged, yes obliged, to shun them.

logansrun

There's been some excellent points made, especially Six and Elsewhere. My point is that it does not logically follow that just because someone shuns you that they do not love you in any way. It's a very, very complex situation, as is all human emotion. Taking the "they hate me now, so I hate them back" attitude is an all to simplistic gut-reaction.

B.