Posts by StrongHaiku

32

The Religion Of Rejection - And Now That Includes Me

by dubstepped in

due to some recent developments i find myself in a new place, and at this point i've lost all of my family and fri....oh that's right, i never really had any friends in the organization anyway.

just people that wanted something from me and a few people that i would invite to do things that occasionally said yes.

the recent rejections of me got me thinking, so let's take a rejection inventory.. i had to reject all of the holidays when my parents started studying.. i had to reject any worldly friends that i already had.. even family became rejected, and the new religion had some place in that.. i was rejected in school and bullied all of the time, not just because we were poor and i made good grades, but for jw reasons too.

StrongHaiku

Congratulations, Dubstepped. Welcome to reality.

You have already been provided with great advice from other posters. The following is what I wish I could have said to myself when I walked out:

"The next few years will be scary and exhilarating. There will be LOTS of things you will learn but, more importantly, unlearn. Soak up all of the knowledge, freedom, and experiences you have been denied for years. Take every opportunity to educate yourself on everything from critical thinking to science to politics to religions and myths to social sciences and on, and on... For the past few years you have not been thinking for yourself but instead blindly following orders. You will not only need to learn facts but learn the skills to think critically to evaluate them properly.

QUESTION EVERYTHING! When you were in you were absolutely convinced you were right on just about everything. You may find that you are wrong on just about everything you believed and still believe.

Stop believing that the Organization (or JW family) have the "moral high-ground". That is purely an illusion. You will find better people and friends just about everywhere else.

And, don't be afraid. You will never be alone."

182

The Case for Theism

by FusionTheism in

"theism" here means "belief in a god" or "the worldview that an intelligent designer created the universe and life.

" ("god" here means a being with a mind who initiated and/or wound-up the universe, and designed life on earth)the most common claim that i see atheists making on twitter, is that "no evidence" exists in support of belief in a god.this post will remove any excuse atheists have for claiming "no evidence exists" in support of an initiator.

atheists can still reject this evidence as "weak," but they cannot truthfully say it does not exist.now, it is true that we do not have "observable, repeatable, falsifiable, empirical, scientific" evidence conclusively proving that an initiator exists, but we do have many lines of philisophical, experiential, and logical evidence.and... here... we... go:1:) many leading scientists, including stephen hawking, say that the space-time-matter universe had a beginning at the singularity/big bang.

StrongHaiku

cofty - Once again so many people are hung up on the word "proof". It has no place in this sort of conversation. It belongs to mathematicians.

Good point. In my postings, I meant "proof" in the sense that it is used in law and science - i.e. that a particular hypothesis has been verified or discounted. I did not intend to imply the use of "proof" in the mathematical context. My apologies if I caused any confusion.

cofty - It's about reason. Our beliefs should be commensurate with the evidence. Theists care nothing for evidence, that's why they invented a faux virtue they call faith.

Couldn't agree more.

14

Example of shunning

by enigma1863 in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eueuwshs1cg&feature=youtu.be

StrongHaiku

"A Confusion of Witnesses"...

14

Example of shunning

by enigma1863 in

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eueuwshs1cg&feature=youtu.be

StrongHaiku

"Jovian"?

182

The Case for Theism

by FusionTheism in

"theism" here means "belief in a god" or "the worldview that an intelligent designer created the universe and life.

" ("god" here means a being with a mind who initiated and/or wound-up the universe, and designed life on earth)the most common claim that i see atheists making on twitter, is that "no evidence" exists in support of belief in a god.this post will remove any excuse atheists have for claiming "no evidence exists" in support of an initiator.

atheists can still reject this evidence as "weak," but they cannot truthfully say it does not exist.now, it is true that we do not have "observable, repeatable, falsifiable, empirical, scientific" evidence conclusively proving that an initiator exists, but we do have many lines of philisophical, experiential, and logical evidence.and... here... we... go:1:) many leading scientists, including stephen hawking, say that the space-time-matter universe had a beginning at the singularity/big bang.

StrongHaiku

FusionTheism - I do have problem with people adamantly declaring they DO KNOW that no Designer exists.

I totally understand. And, I think many atheist would agree that we can't say that "no Designer" exists. All that can be said by atheism is that the proposition that "there is a God(s)" has not met it's burden of proof. And, until such time that it does meet the burden of proof the intellectually honest stand would be "we don't know". And, many atheist will be the first to acknowledge that a designer exists when he presents demonstrable evidence.

182

The Case for Theism

by FusionTheism in

"theism" here means "belief in a god" or "the worldview that an intelligent designer created the universe and life.

" ("god" here means a being with a mind who initiated and/or wound-up the universe, and designed life on earth)the most common claim that i see atheists making on twitter, is that "no evidence" exists in support of belief in a god.this post will remove any excuse atheists have for claiming "no evidence exists" in support of an initiator.

atheists can still reject this evidence as "weak," but they cannot truthfully say it does not exist.now, it is true that we do not have "observable, repeatable, falsifiable, empirical, scientific" evidence conclusively proving that an initiator exists, but we do have many lines of philisophical, experiential, and logical evidence.and... here... we... go:1:) many leading scientists, including stephen hawking, say that the space-time-matter universe had a beginning at the singularity/big bang.

StrongHaiku

Quoting scientists has as much value to me as quoting the Bible (or Harry Potter books). My atheist position isn't based on what people say (or are interpreted to saying), but on what they can prove. If Stephen Hawking tomorrow said "there is a God!" it would not matter to me one bit. He would still need to provide demonstrable evidence that is not personal revelation or a feeling or guess.

Lately, I have found that the key argument for theism seems to boil down to an the inability to be ok with "we don't know" and instead fill the gap of knowledge with "because...God". "We don't know" followed by "let's find out" seems to be more productive. Not sure how "because God" benefits anyone.

13

HOW MANY WOULD LEAVE?

by disillusioned 2 in

jw
friends

there are a lot of people on this site and others who even though they don't believe anymore still fill the seats at the meetings.. i was just wondering, if they all decided to leave at the same time, how many do you think would leave?

would the numbers drop dramatically?

i would love to see that..

StrongHaiku

I noticed a number of people posting that they are not leaving for fear of losing families and the shunning policy. I absolutely empathize with that feeling and my heart goes out to them, and I do not mean to sound insensitive or sound critical of their decision. But I often wonder what the end-game is here. Are they waiting for some major doctrinal change and/or scandal to walk out? I mean, there has been a trove of doctrine changes (e.g overlapping generations, blood issue) and scandals (e.g. rampant child abuse and harmful policies) and some have left but there are so many continuing to stay in who know this is not the "truth".

Again, I understand the need to stay in because of family but I often wonder what (if anything) would be the "final straw" that would either motivate or give them sufficient justification/motivation to walk out.

47

Cart Witnessing - Thrilling! Productive! Epic! Er.....um, well, not so much.....

by sir82 in

jw
friends

talked with a pioneer recently, she was recounting her first experience with cart witnessing.. she brought the subject up, was going on & on & on & on about how wonderful the experience was, and how great, and how she enjoyed it so much, and it was so wonderful, and oh jehovah's blessing, and on and on and on...... a few questions to her revealed what really happened:.

-- a jw who owns a small restaurant in a strip mall allows jws to set up their cart outside his restaurant.

-- the restaurant is tucked pretty far out of the way, not prominent at all.

StrongHaiku

I'm seriously thinking about buying a cart and filling it up with Scientific American, Discover, National Geographic, etc. and parking it 10 feet away from a JW cart.

65

Now Even JW Men Are Going To Die At The Big A

by OneFingerSalute in

so this weekend there was a part about not following jesus at a distance.

the speaker made a big point of stating that any baptized jw male who was not either appointed ms/elder, or at the very least "reaching out" actively, was in fact following jesus at a distance.

he said that the only way to live through the big a was to follow jesus closely.

StrongHaiku

I often wonder the following:

How exactly are "the meek to inherit the Earth" when they are made to feel like they don't even belong in the Kingdom Hall?

51

Best Argument for Atheism - In your view.

by LAWHFol in

if crisis of conscience is one of the top watchtower doctrine killers, what is the coc of theism?.

i'd like to read a book, or other material that does the best job logically arguing for atheism.. i've not read any darwin, however it is my assumption that his focus is primarily on evolution, is this correct?

if you were to recommend one book or a few pieces of reading material, which do the best job of defending atheism, what would they be?.

StrongHaiku

Millie210 - I can however, see that religion has played a role in meeting some need in society or else it would have ceased to exist long before now.

You bring up an interesting point and my response below is not aimed at you but at something I have had people bring up all the time...

I used to believe the above as well until I started to examine the components of religion - e.g. fellowship, purpose, good works, stories, happiness, social coherence, morality, comfort, etc. But taken independently, it is clear to see that these things can be gained without the baggage of religion. I think we have been so thoroughly indoctrinated by society and culture that we have come to automatically associate these very human things as inseparable to (almost synonymous with) religion. Perhaps, religion did fill these needs because it pretty much had few (if any) alternatives and because we have been taught so.

One of the biggest objections I have heard from some people to atheism is that they don't see a clear substitute to what religion offers them. I have even had someone tell me that they would continue to be in a religion until atheism (and/or I personally) offered them a replacement for those things. This is not the role of atheism. Atheism is not a world-view and it is not meant as replacement for the things their religion provides. However, a more comparable replacement for those things religions offer may be found in humanism or some other non-religious world-view or philosophy.

And, I am not without compassion. Life and reality can be pretty rough and I can understand why some people would cling to fantasy to escape. But I would argue that there are lots of wonderful things based in reality to contemplate and experience that do not require religion. I think many people have a blindspot to some of these things because their experiences may be limited or lack imagination or have completely bought into the necessity of religion.

From my perspective, religion gives you a disease and then gives you a placebo for a cure. I think we can come up with better ideas and experiences without it.