Posts by adamah

89

"Snakes will eat dirt in the new order."

by Comatose in

i was talking with a jw i've known a long time and the topic of da new order came up.

she mentioned how nice it will be when all animals are at peace.

i asked why they had camouflage and defensive and offensive weapons if they were to always get along?

adamah

Jeffro said:

Of course this is another ridiculous part of the story. But the JW claim that 'Satan used the snake like a ventriloquist's dummy' is even stupider because it contradicts the above claim. (The NWT says the serpent was "the most cautious", but the point still applies.) If Satan was 'making' the animal 'speak', any supposed intrinsic characteristic of the animal is entirely irrelevant.

Yeah, the Hebrew word is 'arum', which elsewhere in the Bible is translated as 'crafty', 'clever', 'cautious', or even 'prudent' or 'wise' (that's actually more likely, since the serpent was considered as possessing special insight into the secrets of eternal life, due to its ability to regenerate its skin). Obviously the translation of 'prudent' would be out of line in a Christian translation, since THAT wouldn't fit into the eisegesis of the serpent being Satan!

The 'ventriloquist' explanation is no solution, either, since why does the serpent get cursed by God for being involuntarily possessed (demonized) by Satan? It's no match: a freakin' animal vs Lucifer, the powerful fallen angel!! So the "ventriloquist" explanation becomes more of that "punish the victim" mentality (like how Leviticus 20:15 states that if some horny dude has sex with an animal, BOTH must be put to death. What did the animal do to deserve death!?!? "But God, that ewe came on to me!"....).

What the WT is doing is shot-gunning, throwing a plate of spaghetti against a wall to see if any of it sticks. It doesn't even matter if the ideas are contradictory: it's a buffet, a pick-your-own answer, served up cafeteria-style.

So... what did the legless lizards do wrong???

That's him, that's the culprit who misled Eve! Of course, he had legs BEFORE, but I'd recognize that face anywhere!!

I always thought the Adam and Eve story was an awful long way to go to explain why women are afraid of snakes....

(just like the Flood story was a long way to go for parents to explain to their children where rainbows came from, or the Tower of Babel story was a way to explain where all languages came from, or Adam and Eve story was a way to explain where humans and animals came from, etc. In all cases, the answer is that "God Dun It!".

Ancient peoples can be excused for not knowing any better, as they were only trying to explain the World about them with their ancient myths before science prevailed. But even more gobsmackingly ignorant is that so many modern people still believe in these ancient myths as literal truths, when we have scientific explanations available. It's quite sad, really, since it means most people aren't swayed by logic and reason as much as emotion and believe only what they WANT to believe).

Adamah

89

"Snakes will eat dirt in the new order."

by Comatose in

i was talking with a jw i've known a long time and the topic of da new order came up.

she mentioned how nice it will be when all animals are at peace.

i asked why they had camouflage and defensive and offensive weapons if they were to always get along?

adamah

It's an unenviable position to be the creator of the Universe, since ultimately anything bad that happens in the Universe is only going to make you look like a jerk, esp when you try to blame your creations for failing to make them less-than-perfect.

The serpent story is just such an example, with soooo much to pick on.

So WHO made the serpent as the 'cleverest beast of the field', again? Wasn't that YHWH? And why would he do a silly thing like that?

Who made the serpent speak the same language as Adam and Eve, so they could communicate? Wasn't that the same YHWH, the one who later CONFUSED the languages of men at the Tower of Babel? Did He NOT anticipate even the slightest possibility for problems in allowing for animal/human communication to occur?

Odd about that issue, too: why didn't the serpent's ability to speak even come up in the entire dialogue in the account? Notice God DIDN'T say, "and because you deceived Eve, you will lose your ability to speak with humans!" NO, instead God sentenced the serpent to travel on it's belly (and presumably God forgot about the lizards, salamanders, gekkos, etc, since they are all extant four-legged reptiles that look like snakes with legs).

Also note that God didn't take the cleverness away as punishment: I've seen alot of animals, but I wouldn't exactly say the snake was the 'cleverest', compared to birds (crows are one of the few species that use tools), octopuses, dolphins, canines, horses, chimps, monkeys, etc. I'm guessing the writers of the Genesis account didn't have a whole lot of experience with animals outside of their area (sheep, goats, chickens, etc).

Adamah

25

Did anyone notice this?? Think: Noah's Arc

by Bloody Hotdogs! in

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[endif]the september 2013 awake has this to say about the length of zheng he's treasure ships:.

"historical records from the ming dynasty say that zheng hes treasure ships were amazingly large447 feet (136 m) long and 183 feet (56 m) wide.

adamah

You're missing the unstated assumption of the article: Noah's ark is DIFFERENT, since it was God's action. Per the WTBTS, 'natural law' doesn't apply to the Genesis Flood account, just to that Chinese dude, since he didn't have YHWH on his side.

Noah's ark account absolutely demands a string of "God Dun It!" miracles (which aren't even stated explicitly as miracles in the account, so Christians will engage in a string of eisegesis and rationalizations when reading the passage, letting their already over-active imaginations fill in the gaps of what is stated). The Flood account requires completely overlooking the usual laws of physics, climatology, biology, physiology, nautical engineeting, etc, but none of those apply, since the entire account can be claimed as a "God Dun It!" miracle.

Sure, nautical engineers understand that wooden vessels are unstable under 'natural' circumstances, and that there's no known wood possessing the buoyancy and resistance to water-logging to float (much less remain afloat for an entire YEAR!): however, the Noah's ark story involves the special pleading requiring use of supernatural miracles anyway, so it's fighting a losing battle arguing against the existence of miracles in an account that requires miracles. Why? If someone already accepts the premise of God's ability to perform miracles, then NO amount of impossiblity under otherwise 'natural' conditions is too outlandish for them to swallow, since they already accept that belief (including YHWH stopping the Earth's rotation to make the daylight last longer during battles, resurrecting the dead, etc). You're trying to break their circular logic via direct attack, where it's impermeable.

That's why it's generally better to stay away from the miraculous claim itself, but to focus on issues RELATED to the account, eg:

1) why does God express regret for making all life on Earth? Isn't he SUPPOSED to know future events?

'Regret' is a human emotion which happens to mortals since we don't KNOW the future, but that shouldn't apply to "all-knowing" God (who gives mortals the miracle of prophecy, foretelling future events). The word 'regret' implies God cannot even predict his OWN future reaction to an action He carried out while on His own, even actions he earlier examined the results of, and declared "it was good". God needs to second-check his quality-control processes, if evil men and animals is his idea of "good".

2) Why didn't God just create a virulent strain of deadly viruses and give Noah and family the vaccine? Less muss and fuss, no need for ark and gathering up the animals, etc. That kind of 'Andromeda-strain' bioengineering SHOULD be absolutely no problem for the 'Intelligent Designer' to pull off: heck, men can do it nowadays, even keeping deadly virulent strains under lock and key in US Army research facilities for use as biological warfare.

3) Why did God FORGET to prohibit murder/manslaughter before the Flood? Why did He wait until AFTER the Flood to say "don't kill each other"?

4) Similarly, why did God wait to give Noah permission to enforce the murder rule until AFTER the Flood, as well? The lack of regulation of behavior and self-governance right after the Flood implies that God forgot to allow men to rule other fellow men BEFORE the Flood, and hence why mankind lived in anarchy (which explains why Cain and Lamech literally got away with murder, without their own life blood being demanded for the crime: God forgot to give mankind that law before the Flood).

THOSE types of questions are a little more cognitive-dissonance inducing in anyone who's at least half-way logical, and they can't simply be dismissed with a "God Dun It!" statement.... Then AFTER they begin to question the truth of the account and Genesis, the belief in supernatural miracles often will just melt away all on it's own.... :)

Adamah

25

Did anyone notice this?? Think: Noah's Arc

by Bloody Hotdogs! in

[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:worddocument> <w:view>normal</w:view> <w:zoom>0</w:zoom> <w:punctuationkerning /> <w:validateagainstschemas /> <w:saveifxmlinvalid>false</w:saveifxmlinvalid> <w:ignoremixedcontent>false</w:ignoremixedcontent> <w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext>false</w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext> <w:compatibility> <w:breakwrappedtables /> <w:snaptogridincell /> <w:wraptextwithpunct /> <w:useasianbreakrules /> <w:dontgrowautofit /> </w:compatibility> <w:browserlevel>microsoftinternetexplorer4</w:browserlevel> </w:worddocument> </xml><!

[endif]the september 2013 awake has this to say about the length of zheng he's treasure ships:.

"historical records from the ming dynasty say that zheng hes treasure ships were amazingly large447 feet (136 m) long and 183 feet (56 m) wide.

adamah

Hmmm, I think some are missing the unstated message of the Awake article: by pointing out the exmple of Zheng He's treasure ships, they're actually making the case that Noah's more modest size IS more likely, esp so if you allow for the possibility of miracles to keep it alfoat. They're not encouraging rationality, but actively discouraging it by using Chinese historical fantasies to make Biblical fantasy to seem more possible.

It's hard to swallow any other interpretation (such that the WT is killing the goose that laid the golden egg).

Adamah

25

Did anyone notice this?? Think: Noah's Arc

by Bloody Hotdogs! in

[if gte mso 9]><xml> <w:worddocument> <w:view>normal</w:view> <w:zoom>0</w:zoom> <w:punctuationkerning /> <w:validateagainstschemas /> <w:saveifxmlinvalid>false</w:saveifxmlinvalid> <w:ignoremixedcontent>false</w:ignoremixedcontent> <w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext>false</w:alwaysshowplaceholdertext> <w:compatibility> <w:breakwrappedtables /> <w:snaptogridincell /> <w:wraptextwithpunct /> <w:useasianbreakrules /> <w:dontgrowautofit /> </w:compatibility> <w:browserlevel>microsoftinternetexplorer4</w:browserlevel> </w:worddocument> </xml><!

[endif]the september 2013 awake has this to say about the length of zheng he's treasure ships:.

"historical records from the ming dynasty say that zheng hes treasure ships were amazingly large447 feet (136 m) long and 183 feet (56 m) wide.

adamah

Yeah, JWs and most Christians miss the entire POINT of the story by focusing on what are essentially minor and irrelevant trivial details (like tar, etc, which are easily excused by "God Dun It" miraculous claims). As a result of focusing on the minor details, they're completely missing the forest for the trees (cynics might say it's intentional, designed to discourage free-thinking and rationality, allowing them to abuse the Bible passages for other purposes).

The POINT of the flood story is to demonstrate YHWH's SOLUTION to the problem of "evil men" that existed before the Flood. God's solution was not confined to the most obvious first step (wiping out evil humans), but the OTHER TWO steps that followed:

1) prohibiting bloodshed of other living beings, and

2) delegating Divine authority to mankind to enforce rule #1,

That was God's solution to address the problem of murder/manslaughter which supposedly existed BEFORE the Flood.

The reason JW's don't want people to know the real point of the story is that a proper reading opens a can of worms (questions) that are uncomfortable to answer (eg "why didn't God tell men NOT to murder each other BEFORE the Flood?" It also disproves the Christian claim that Noah offered salvation to humans before the Flood, since offering an opportunity for repentence and salvation that wasn't actually a part of the solution God implemented in the Flood account).

I wrote articles on it:

http://awgue.weebly.com/genesis-vs-2nd-peter-noah-didnt-preach-bupkis.html

http://awgue.weebly.com/does-jehovahs-witnesses-blood-policy-reflect-they-understand-noahs-flood.html

Adamah

6

Some Mormons Search the Web and Find Doubt

by NewYork44M in

jw
friends

here is an interesting article in today's new york times.. while it seems to be rough times for the cults of the world becuase of the internet, it is interesting that the end of the story suggests that the individuals are "still attached to their mormon faith.".

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/07/21/us/some-mormons-search-the-web-and-find-doubt.html?pagewanted=1&hp.

adamah

Unfortunately, people make a choice to stay in religions for more reasons that the rationality of the theology (or irrationality, as the case may be).

For many, it's more about the social, familial, and emotional needs that are provided by being a member (or, like designs said, it's more about avoiding taking a hit in the pocketbook, with the religion serving as an unofficial Rotary Club: the old saying is "the hardest fact to get someone to accept is that which threatens their and their family's livelihood").

The JWs and Mormons fully-understand this dynamic, and have maximized the non-rational factors as much as they can, making the cost of leaving so high that even if someone KNOWS the Truth isn't actually "the Truth" (i.e. being a model of reality that is confirmed by observations) they won't decide to act. Ironically, Simon Peter even voiced his doubts to Jesus, saying he saw no other alternatives for his life: "But Lord, where else would we (the apostles) go?" Those words could've been voiced by a JW or Mormon who says, "but I'm a born-in, and my entire family are JWs: where else would we go?"

(that's actually a fallacious argument based on 'appealing to personal ignorance of available alternatives', and thus the choice is a false dichotomy, eg who says anyone NEEDS to believe in ANY religion?)

If people aren't willing to stand up for reality, AKA truths, then they deserve whatever ethical and moral torment they experience in their lives. They're wasting their lives built on living on a lie or based on a pipe-dream, being the ultimate examples of hypocrits who are trying to get others trapped into a lifestyle that they themselves KNOW is a lie. At some point, individual responsibility has to enter the picture, and a person has to decide not to waste THEIR life; it's only themselves (and their families) that they're hurting, in the end.

I guess JWs (and Mormons) are living proof of the old saying, 'misery loves company': apparently misery is even willing to spend its Saturday mornings going from door-to-door, looking for new recruits to join the misery club.

Adam

4

The Amazing Atheist Finally Takes a Crack @ Jehovah's Witnesses

by okage in

http://youtu.be/hbfthrsq2i0.

here's hoping it's an active link because lately, it doesn't make anything i post active..

adamah

Yeah, he makes some salient and valid observations, but he amazingly undermines all the effort by punching the JW: people die from being cold-cocked like that, as their head hits the pavement and causes massive cerebral bleeding and brain damage. It's completely irresponsible and juvenile of him to depict that in the video, so if that's his way of increasing YouTube page views, it ain't so amazing, and I'm not impressed: it's mindless depiction of violence, which is irrational, and only gives all atheists a bad reputation.

Adamah

31

What the heck is a Godhead?

by Rattigan350 in

i was listening to the radio, a religous show.. the speaker started talking about how the holy spirit is the third person of the godhead.. they just assume that everyone understands what a godhead is, and it is a manmade term.

that is what makes their point of view so ridiculous.. is it like a godfoot, godear, god elbow?.

they have their scriptures to link the holy spirit with the trinity, and jws have their scriptures to unlink it, and never they two shall meet.. .

adamah

sarahsmile said-

Adamah -I disagree with your conclusion about Almighty God. You make him seem lesser of the three by implying what you said. I could be wrong. I believe the Almighty Father can do what he wants and his glory humans can not handle so he sent his son. And his son sent Holy Spirit. They do nothing without the command of the Father.

I didn't state any conclusion about "Almighty God", but merely added some not-so-common knowledge of how ancient men conceived of "spirit". This idea was not confined to just the ancient Hebrews (Hebrew word is 'ruah', translated as "spirit"), but also Greeks, Romans, Babylonians, etc. The idea of spirits eminating from others to carry one's communications was common-place, or to give others strength via spirit (it's the basis of why alcholic drinks are still referred to as 'spirits'). All of that is verifable fact, eg spirit is referred to in writings of Homer when mortals communicate.

Yeah it really is a moot point. Still for exJWs it is better to understand that there are scriptures to prove Holy Spirit as a God and Adamah just found another one.

Huh? I didn't offer "proof" of Holy Spirit: I discredited the belief in spirits, by explaining the historical roots of the concept.

Not knowing that has allowed people to transform the idea of 'spirits' into some mystical and magical power/being, when it's not: it only seems that way IF you don't understand the historical context of the idea.

Adam

31

What the heck is a Godhead?

by Rattigan350 in

i was listening to the radio, a religous show.. the speaker started talking about how the holy spirit is the third person of the godhead.. they just assume that everyone understands what a godhead is, and it is a manmade term.

that is what makes their point of view so ridiculous.. is it like a godfoot, godear, god elbow?.

they have their scriptures to link the holy spirit with the trinity, and jws have their scriptures to unlink it, and never they two shall meet.. .

adamah

Sarasmile said:

Now that is a different twist! Through out the bible Jehovah Almighty had messengers. He ask different messengers ,angels, to perform certain tasks and report back to him. So do you think Jehovah God knows thing because the angels convey it to him. Other than that he Jehovah would not know anything.

Not really: in Genesis, God is depicted as more limited in his powers (non-omniscient, lacking Divine fore-knowledge, eg he shows regret for the prior decisions he made by regretting making man, hence the need for the Flood). God had to personally go down to check out the Tower of Babel, and didn't even send angels to investigate (and certainly didn't possess remote viewing capabilities of activities on Earth on his Divine Foreknowledge™ 42" plasma sceen TV). God "matures" in later writings, developing more and more powers as later claims for his powers escalated, or he sends angels, etc.

humbled said-

Why? What is the practical value of this? and really ,where does it end?

The ability to create intentionally-confusing theology is an attempt to gain power over others, since it serves as some justification for the existence of those who claim to be able to sort it all out, AKA spiritual advisors, leaders, priests, elders, Governing Body, etc.

Think of those people who are fans of Harry Potter, LOTR, etc, and have gained massive amounts of trivial knowledge on their subject; it's like those types, except actually MORE dangerous since unlike the typical Tolkien fan, they won't actually admit their Holy Book is also based on a tradition of fantasy.

Adam

6

US Navy Gets 'Cold Fusion' Patent

by metatron in

jw
friends

http://energycatalyzer3.com/news/us-navy-has-been-granted-an-lenr-patent.

the us navy is now the assignee for a lenr ("cold fusion") patent.

a patent does not prove a new technology is real - by itself - but the surrounding details strongly suggest to me that the us navy is serious about this matter and may be looking for a new powerplant technology.. the scientists involved in the patent development are well experienced and deeply knowledgeable in their fields (such as pamela boss).

adamah

Interesting, although I noticed the filing date on the patent was in Sept 2007 (!). So this patent being awarded is not exactly proof of SPAWAR's current activity working on cold fusion, as the opening paragraph seems to claim:

"The rumors of the demise of the US Navy’s Space and Naval Warfare Systems Command or SPAWAR’s low energy nuclear reaction research program appear to be greatly exaggerated. The research organization is not only still actively working on cold fusion, it’s been granted an LENR patent."

IS it really taking THAT long to get a patent these days? Wow, USPTO must be swamped....

Adam