Posts by Prime

91

Open letter Re: Mr. Bowen, Mrs. Anderson

by Prime in

"jws leaders need to mandate elder bodies to uniformly report abuse to the authorities no matter what jurisdiction; prohibit elders from being involved in any investigative process to decide guilt or innocence in place of the authorities; do away with the two-witness rule to determine, as if they were magistrates, guilt or innocence of someone accused; prohibit so-called repentant molesters from engaging in the door-to-door ministry, and always inform the congregation if a convicted or confessed molester is meeting with them.

" -barbara anderson .

this is another reason why the watchtower society doesn't require that the elders uniformly report abuse to the authorities no matter what jurisdiction.

Prime

Prime,

I haven't engaged you before and really don't want to now. Besty is a good friend of mine (terrific guy, really). He asked a simple question to which I hoped you would provide a simple answer: "why are elders instructed to call the Watchtower legal department before doing anything else?" If you don't know why, simply answer "no." If you do know why, please share. A simple answer from you, either way, would prove most informative to this debate that you have initiated.

Thank you in advance.

You can read the 10/01/2010 BOE letter Re: Child Abuse, or any prior letter addressing this issue after 01/01/1997;

"Most states have child-abuse reporting laws that, depending on the facts, mandate elders to report an accusation to the authorities. Thus, when elders learn of an accusation of child abuse, two elders from their congregation should immediately call the Legal Department for legal advice."

Any organization, that through the course of their activities may encounter legal issues has a legal department.

91

Open letter Re: Mr. Bowen, Mrs. Anderson

by Prime in

"jws leaders need to mandate elder bodies to uniformly report abuse to the authorities no matter what jurisdiction; prohibit elders from being involved in any investigative process to decide guilt or innocence in place of the authorities; do away with the two-witness rule to determine, as if they were magistrates, guilt or innocence of someone accused; prohibit so-called repentant molesters from engaging in the door-to-door ministry, and always inform the congregation if a convicted or confessed molester is meeting with them.

" -barbara anderson .

this is another reason why the watchtower society doesn't require that the elders uniformly report abuse to the authorities no matter what jurisdiction.

Prime

Forget spreading information in the hall; tell me WHY the WT can't just tell elders to send suspected abuse cases directly to the POLICE?

Waiting for your answer, Prime.

If you'll take a few moments and read the posts on this thread, everything you stated in this and your prior post on this thread has been addressed.

There are many civic based organizations with the same organizational structure as Jehovah's Witnesses. These organizations generally don't have a child protection policy aside from what is legally required of them. Unless an organization hosts a formal arrangement where parents leave their children under the care and keeping of the organization unsupervised by the parents themselves, a third party cannot be held accountable for child abuse aside from what is stipulated by state or federal law. At most, a person can be charged with a misdemeanor (not reporting), but a person or organization cannot be sued.

There is the circumstance where a person is in a leadership position and abuses his authority to try and access children outside of any formal arrangement associated with an organization. For that reason, a person suspected of abuse shouldn't be allowed to serve in this capacity even if an organization doesn't have activities for children unsupervised by their parents. This was the grounds for liability in 2007.

http://www.jw-media.org/gbl/20071121.htm

In the United States, over 80,000 elders currently serve in over 12,300 congregations. (Acts 20:28) During the last 100 years, only eleven elders have been sued for child abuse in thirteen lawsuits filed in the United States. In seven of these lawsuits against the elders, accusations against the Watchtower Society itself were dismissed by the courts.

This is where a line is drawn. No organization can be sued for their response to domestic abuse involving their overall church membership or any incident outside the perimeters of their facilities, officials and sponsored activities.

The elders I've been associated with take a very aggressive stand against domestic abuse, abuse in general. Most people do. They don't just do what's legally required of them. Not everything has to be stated verbatim if it's a matter of common sense.

In cases where there's not substantial evidence that abuse is occurring or has occurred, it's not always appropriate to automatically go to the police.

Take it out of the context of Jehovah's Witnesses for a second. If an adult was to make an accusation to a religious leader (a pastor for example) against a church member, they may take some action in response to the matter, whatever their church allows. Unless there's a legal requirement, they're not necessarily going to go to the police for you if you're an adult.

If you think I'm wrong, whether you're a new or longstanding member of a church or some other profit or nonprofit organization, start making accusations against someone in the church and see if anyone will repeat what you tell them to the police. The Watchtower Society doesn't put the elders in that situation.

There's been some debate as to whether the incidents in the Fremont, California lawsuit took place during church activities, but the case is being appealed because of the liability issues involved. You can discern that much from the WTS formal response to the case.

http://www.jw-media.org/usa/20120620.htm

This is the first time that an organization was found responsible for the alleged misdeeds of a member who held no position of leadership or authority,” states James McCabe, an attorney representing Watchtower in the case.

480

Zimmerman Not guilty

by mouthy in

Prime

It's disgraceful how something like this has become such circus with no logic to support it.

"We will pursue civil rights charges with the Department of Justice, we will continue to fight for the removal of Stand Your Ground laws in every state, and we will not rest until racial profiling in all its forms is outlawed," Jealous said.

Racial profiling doesn't necessarily have anything to do with racism. A person may have a tendency to associate race with a certain crime because of exposure. For example, “there's been a string of robberies in our neighborhood, and ninety-percent of the time, the burglar is white, black, hispanic, etc.

How can racial profiling have any application to civilians? Hypothetically, let's say a certain race statistically commits more crime in one area than another and as a result, a civilian starts to stereo type this race in connection with a crime. How can a civilian legally violate your rights?

A civilian has no power. A civilian can't question, detain or apprehend you like a police officer. Sure, a civilian can watch you, follow you and call the police on you. Since when is that a civil rights violation?

George Zimmerman operated within his legal rights considering the “Stand Your Ground” statute. I personally wouldn't have shot an unarmed adolescent, so I can understand the opposition to this controversial statute, but not from the NAACP. In this case, they can't be taken in good faith. The fact that there's no evidence of anything race related and racial profiling has no application to civilians, the furor that the NAACP and like minded individuals is stirring up is completely pointless.

91

Open letter Re: Mr. Bowen, Mrs. Anderson

by Prime in

"jws leaders need to mandate elder bodies to uniformly report abuse to the authorities no matter what jurisdiction; prohibit elders from being involved in any investigative process to decide guilt or innocence in place of the authorities; do away with the two-witness rule to determine, as if they were magistrates, guilt or innocence of someone accused; prohibit so-called repentant molesters from engaging in the door-to-door ministry, and always inform the congregation if a convicted or confessed molester is meeting with them.

" -barbara anderson .

this is another reason why the watchtower society doesn't require that the elders uniformly report abuse to the authorities no matter what jurisdiction.

Prime

She is alice.in.wonderland, Spade, DreamWeaver, Tempest, Ryan, among other aliases, and has had a long history of posting here, on topix, beliefnet and even on cedars' blog. She has said in the past that she needed to get her life back in order before resuming meeting attendance. I do not know whether she is currently associated with a congregation. Wherever she goes she seems to play the same record. I hope that goes some way to answer your question Hortensia. Perhaps Prime can fill in some details for you ;-)

What's stated in the 10/01/2012 BOE obviously applies to anyone on the national sex-offender registry. Divulging this type of information into the congregation through an unauthorized channel can result in a defamation lawsuit.

So you're saying that spreading true and publicly available information about a known sex offender among congregants would result in a defamation lawsuit? What planet are you on?

Woman... My name is Ryan. You have no evidence whatsoever that connects me to the monikers you have stuck in your head aside from your imagination. I damn sure don't keep up with anything like that. This seems to be an anonymous forum for the purpose of keeping things somewhat impersonal.

A "known sex offender" is above all, a convict on the national registry. Beyond that, it would be a person with a prior conviction that is not on the public registry. Outside of this legal channel, yes, anyone spreading information about a crime punishable by law, without a charge or conviction to back the claim, is subject to slander statutes.

http://www.dmlp.org/legal-guide/california-defamation-law

California Defamation Law

In cases involving matters of purely private concern, the burden of proving truth is on the defendant.

The superior authorities don't ask anyone to publicize the presence of a suspect, they mandate that a suspect be turned over to them and they'll make that determination. Inasmuch, elders comply with reporting laws.

I was somewhat skeptical about saying anything on this forum, but I'll have to say, I'm justifiably surprised that persons I've spoken to here aren't as ignorant and dishonest as you are.

32

The UNFORGIVABLE Sin: What Is It?

by Cold Steel in

jesus said: .

verily i say unto you, all sins shall be forgiven unto the sons of men, and blasphemies wherewith soever they shall blaspheme: but he that shall blaspheme against the holy ghost hath never forgiveness, but is in danger of eternal damnation.

(mark 3:28-29).

Prime

So if someone came into a council of elders and said, "I've come to you brethren to confess that I blasphemed against the Holy Spirit. I was drunk, didn't know what I was doing, and we thought it would be fun to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. Now I realize I was wrong. Have I gone too far, elders? Is my future cast in stone?"

What would those elders say?

No one who's gone too far cares. That's why the sin is unforgivable. Look it up in the WTS literature. You're talking about the wrong thing around this place.

91

Open letter Re: Mr. Bowen, Mrs. Anderson

by Prime in

"jws leaders need to mandate elder bodies to uniformly report abuse to the authorities no matter what jurisdiction; prohibit elders from being involved in any investigative process to decide guilt or innocence in place of the authorities; do away with the two-witness rule to determine, as if they were magistrates, guilt or innocence of someone accused; prohibit so-called repentant molesters from engaging in the door-to-door ministry, and always inform the congregation if a convicted or confessed molester is meeting with them.

" -barbara anderson .

this is another reason why the watchtower society doesn't require that the elders uniformly report abuse to the authorities no matter what jurisdiction.

Prime

This is where dubs, (and also certain family members in law enforcement), fail miserably. If you advertise yourself as holding to a higher standard, you are going to be held to a higher standard. Shocking isn't it? Prime and others can't get their head around it. They want to hide behind gaps in the law, but at the same time, look down their noses at the immorality of the world.

This has nothing to do with adhering to a "higher standard."

w97 1/1 pp. 28-29 Let Us Abhor What Is Wicked

And there may be consequences that he cannot avoid.

Depending on the law of the land where he lives, the molester may well have to serve a prison term or face other sanctions from the State. The congregation will not protect him from this.

In certain states, a sex offender can't even legally enter a church. If a person has this type of sanction associated with their conviction, Jehovah's Witnesses won't allow them on the property of a Kingdom Hall.

As for a "higher standard," would it take any effort to formulate a policy that bans any person with a history of abuse from entering a Kingdom Hall regardless if the state prohibits such a thing or not? No. Would it take any effort to formulate a policy that supersedes state or federal law for any reason? No.

A person is allocated civil rights on the basis of what the secular authorities allow. That's all this has to do with. Because of the fact that these acknowledgements are openly made in the Watchtower (the possibility of the congregation having to address the actions of a person that commits this crime), there's nothing to cover up.

So what are you left with? Nothing.

All 50 states have requirements for the mandatory reporting of child abuse, so there's nothing to complain about. You can always go back before the legislation of any statute and find a person that didn't adhere to the law in its present state, because the statute was nonexistent. You will not however, be able to hold anyone accountable for such a thing based on anything ecclesiastical ("higher standard") in a secular court of law. It's illegal.

91

Open letter Re: Mr. Bowen, Mrs. Anderson

by Prime in

"jws leaders need to mandate elder bodies to uniformly report abuse to the authorities no matter what jurisdiction; prohibit elders from being involved in any investigative process to decide guilt or innocence in place of the authorities; do away with the two-witness rule to determine, as if they were magistrates, guilt or innocence of someone accused; prohibit so-called repentant molesters from engaging in the door-to-door ministry, and always inform the congregation if a convicted or confessed molester is meeting with them.

" -barbara anderson .

this is another reason why the watchtower society doesn't require that the elders uniformly report abuse to the authorities no matter what jurisdiction.

Prime

Whatever the government requires is a floor, not a ceiling. If you want to boast about your morals, don't do the minimum.

It sounds like you're the conservative type (personal responsibility).

http://www.studentnewsdaily.com/conservative-vs-liberal-beliefs/

Conservatives believe in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense. Believe the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals. Conservative policies generally emphasize empowerment of the individual to solve problems.

Even the WTS notes that child abuse is under reported.

g82 6/22 p. 9 Rape at Home

Five thousand new cases are reported nationally each year, and experts say that for each one reported ten or twenty go unreported.

From reading these posts, everyone is transparent except an elder. “Professionals applicable to child abuse reporting laws,” is to help things get reported. It's not to take the place of personal responsibility.

91

Open letter Re: Mr. Bowen, Mrs. Anderson

by Prime in

"jws leaders need to mandate elder bodies to uniformly report abuse to the authorities no matter what jurisdiction; prohibit elders from being involved in any investigative process to decide guilt or innocence in place of the authorities; do away with the two-witness rule to determine, as if they were magistrates, guilt or innocence of someone accused; prohibit so-called repentant molesters from engaging in the door-to-door ministry, and always inform the congregation if a convicted or confessed molester is meeting with them.

" -barbara anderson .

this is another reason why the watchtower society doesn't require that the elders uniformly report abuse to the authorities no matter what jurisdiction.

Prime

That is a ridiculous statement, because it is not a matter of federal law. The governments of the states and territories make the laws regarding child abuse and requiring it to be reported.

From a US government summary [pdf, approx. 500KB] of the states' mandatory reporting laws [my emphasis added via boldface]:

"All States, the District of Columbia, American Samoa, Guam, the Northern Mariana Islands, Puerto Rico, and the U.S. Virgin Islands have statutes identifying persons who are required to report child maltreatment under specific circumstances."

"The circumstances under which a mandatory reporter must make a report vary from State to State. Typically, a report must be made when the reporter, in his or her official capacity, suspects or has reasons to believe that a child has been abused or neglected."

"The clergy-penitent privilege is also widely affirmed, although that privilege usually is limited to confessional communications and, in some States, denied altogether."

[Judicial committee meetings do not have the expectation of privacy associated with a confessional because they involve more people other than the penitent and a minister, emphasising the singular "a"]

"Approximately 18 States, the District of Columbia, American Samoa, Guam, and the Virgin Islands currently require mandatory reporters to provide their names and contact information, either at the time of the initial oral report or as part of a written report. [footnote] California, Colorado, Florida, Illinois, Indiana, Iowa, Louisiana, Maine, Massachusetts, Minnesota, Mississippi, Missouri, Nebraska, New Mexico, New York, North Carolina, Pennsylvania, and Vermont have this requirement."

[In those states, including several of the most populous states and the headquarters of the Watchtower Society, an anonymous call from a pay phone will not meet the legal requirement for notification.]

Article VI Clause 2 of the Constitution reads:

This Constitution, and the Laws of the United States which shall be made in Pursuance thereof; and all Treaties made, or which shall be made, under the Authority of the United States, shall be the supreme Law of the Land; and the Judges in every State shall be bound thereby, any Thing in the Constitution or Law of any State to the Contrary notwithstanding.

Usually referred to as the supremacy clause, it declares that federal law takes precedence over all forms of state law.

That's why I stated; “What authority gives this woman or the administrative position of Jehovah's Witnesses the right to require more from the elders than the federal government?”

If a “pay phone” will not suffice, an elder will fill out the appropriate paper work.

http://www.nyc.gov/html/acs/html/child_safety/mandated_reporters.shtml

Oral reports must be followed within 48 hours by a written report to the local CPS (for more information on this process, click here ). A copy of the current Mandated Reporter Form (LDSS Form 2221A) can be downloaded here (Word format)

JWs are simple persons if they're law abiding citizens. That's where a line is drawn. I notice people keep inserting ecclesiastical statements into their assertions. Unless a person or organization's ecclesiastical protocols or tenets conflict with secular law, separation of church and state takes precedent. You have no right to use the government to force your opinions on any person or organization based on anything ecclesiastical.

91

Open letter Re: Mr. Bowen, Mrs. Anderson

by Prime in

"jws leaders need to mandate elder bodies to uniformly report abuse to the authorities no matter what jurisdiction; prohibit elders from being involved in any investigative process to decide guilt or innocence in place of the authorities; do away with the two-witness rule to determine, as if they were magistrates, guilt or innocence of someone accused; prohibit so-called repentant molesters from engaging in the door-to-door ministry, and always inform the congregation if a convicted or confessed molester is meeting with them.

" -barbara anderson .

this is another reason why the watchtower society doesn't require that the elders uniformly report abuse to the authorities no matter what jurisdiction.

Prime

Prime is a troll - any normal person knows child molesters should be reported - no exceptions.

It doesn't matter if it's the law or not, that's what sensible people and reputable organisations do.

Prime is a 'prime' example of WTS logic and reasoning and weasly words to try and excuse their responsibility. One minute they think they are princes on earth that will rule and judge people and next they are scrambling around looking for loopholes to excuse their inaction.

I believe that every instance of abuse as well other crimes should be reported to the authorities whether it's the law or not. If you're a hearsay witness, you're potentially being used for something illegal.

https://www.childwelfare.gov/systemwide/laws_policies/statutes/report.cfm
This factsheet discusses laws that impose penalties, in the form of either fines or jail time or both, on mandatory reporters who fail to report cases of suspected child abuse and neglect as required by the reporting laws. State laws also may impose penalties on any person who knowingly makes a false report of abuse or neglect. Summaries of laws for all States and U.S. territories are included.

Unless you're aware of a prior complaint against a person, or an adult victim appears to be traumatized, it's the responsibility of an adult witness to collaborate with authorities. That's all I'm stating. It isn't just "WTS logic" to give concern to false reporting if punishment for such a thing has been incorporated into law.

91

Open letter Re: Mr. Bowen, Mrs. Anderson

by Prime in

"jws leaders need to mandate elder bodies to uniformly report abuse to the authorities no matter what jurisdiction; prohibit elders from being involved in any investigative process to decide guilt or innocence in place of the authorities; do away with the two-witness rule to determine, as if they were magistrates, guilt or innocence of someone accused; prohibit so-called repentant molesters from engaging in the door-to-door ministry, and always inform the congregation if a convicted or confessed molester is meeting with them.

" -barbara anderson .

this is another reason why the watchtower society doesn't require that the elders uniformly report abuse to the authorities no matter what jurisdiction.

Prime

You are so full of it, Prime.

It's simple. If an elder suspects abuse, report to the secular authorities, regardless of the jurisdiction. It doesn't matter if it is hearsay. All the elder has to do is report what he has seen and heard. The police do the investigating.

Police have special powers of investigation not available to private citizens. In the case of child abusers it is important to collect evidence before the abuser is alerted that they are being investigated. Elders, if they do their own investigation before or in tandem with a police investigation, (say, for example calling the person in for a Judicial Committee meeting) might inadvertently tip off the perpetrator and frustrate the investigation.

If you think I'm wrong, make an accusation against someone to any adult you deem responsible, and see if the person you're speaking to goes to the police for you if they have no legal responsibility to do so. Some states mandate certain professionals with a duty to report suspected child abuse because of the contact they have with children. A medical professional (physician, psychiatrist, psychologist) through the course of their practice may notice physical, psychological or emotional signs of abuse. A school teacher may notice a student is extremely withdrawn and appears to be disturbed. This could be because of problems at home.

An elder does not have anymore contact with other people's children than anyone else. As for “investigating,” all an elder does is confront the person that's being accused. If the law mandates clergy as a “professional” applicable to child abuse reporting laws, confronting an abuser is within reason and a person’s legal rights. “Calling the person in for a judicial committee meeting” is not part of an investigation. Some states require that a report is to be made within 24 hours.

Idaho Code § 16-1605

Any person having reason to believe that a child has been abused, abandoned, or neglected shall report or cause a report to be made within 24 hours.

In such a case, a report would be made before calling the person in for a judicial committee meeting.