a friend visited us today... it took about five minutes before we were having a general moan about the ways things are!
anyway.. these friends of ours were telling us about the things that go on in the families of elders in various congregations and how these guys are still in office.. .
now i thought that if you were 'appointed' it meant that you had god's blessing and approval... but how does that work out if you are allowing unscriptural things to go on in your own family and yet you are still in office?
BENEXT...
Thanks for the reply.... I had to laugh at the terminology you used ( don't make waves)
If I had a pound sterling for every time I heard our P.O. say... " we need to keep this thing under control...Best not to make waves etc.etc.) I would be a pretty wealthly guy!
Crazy or what!
this is a genuine question... i mean no disrespect to anyone...especially to my heavenly father....but i have this gnawing question in my head that just wont go away...... okay... with that out of the way.... let's take the holly and jessica story that hit the headlines in the uk recently...two innocent kids, murdered and left to decompose in a filthy mud trench....;or worse than that, the story about the two people in the usa who have been busted for running an internet child porn site that features pix of children...babies as young as five months... five months!!!!!!
!.....being sexually abused..... if i start to think about what these poor kids went through it drives me mad!
and then if i start to think about what some kids are still going through even as i write..... welli can hardly bear it!.
FARAON...
I too have a daughter whose life has been irrevocably damaged by man who claimed to serve God! And although it grieves my spirit to hear that you have had the same you obviously know that you don't have a monopoly of that kind of experience... that goes without saying. Perhaps the difference between you and I is that we have chosen to deal with our experience in a different way to you.
If you read my earlier answers you will see that like you I have have had many reasons to think that Jehovah does not care or is oblivious to what we have been and are still going through... but I don't think that way... I think that I know the reasons for what has gone on for the past few thousand years.... and I still have implicit trust in Jehovah to do as he promised. i.e. All things made new.
I won't patronise you by saying that I feel sorry for you, because I don't..we are what we allow ourselves to become.. or sadly sometimes what experience and the maleavolence of others makes us.
I can only speak for myself and that being the case I am certain in my mind that the the Law of Cause and Effect is non-negotiable... I can't get around it!
You say that life could have come by chance or that maybe the Big Bang is God... maybe that is the truth of the matter... But whatever the Truth is, the One who started all this off is a lot wiser than I am, and I for one am still ( after all that has happened to us as a family -) prepared to put my trust in him. (My daughter continues to serve God too, along with her husband and four sons.)
In your reply you seem to focus in on all the negative things that you can think of to highlight God's 'faults' or whatever you would call them, but there are examples too where God saved and helped and supported and sustained... I know that he has provided comfort and hope for me and my family through the darkest of trials.
For you it seems that glass is always half empty... for me it looks half full. I guess that we just look at thing a different way!
re: Finding some of the Society's reps a little bonkers!
I was well aware of what I wrote!
I don't trust any Society of imperfect men. (Do not put your trust in etc....)
I put my trust in the God revealed to me through the pages of the Bible and in the example and life of His Son!
If you think about it even some of Jesus' own disciples were a bit 'off the wall' You know the kind of thing... arguing all the time, bickering and egotistical etc.etc.etc.. But for me that doesn't mean that their Master wasn't worth listening to! In fact it was the very way that he dealt with them that I find the most comfort in.
Finally... You'll have to excuse my frivolity to end with... but I found it amusing that you even found fault with the reproductive cycle of the honey bee!!!!
I think that whatever the Creator did... (however you percieve him) you would find fault with some aspect of it.... But hey maybe I'm wrong. Perhaps you do have a positive side!
In any event I thank you sincerely for your reply. I am just about to take off for a long walk to contemplate the beauty of the creation (or the accident according to you).
Take care and thanks for the life long blessing of peace which I wholeheartedly reciprocate.
this is a genuine question... i mean no disrespect to anyone...especially to my heavenly father....but i have this gnawing question in my head that just wont go away...... okay... with that out of the way.... let's take the holly and jessica story that hit the headlines in the uk recently...two innocent kids, murdered and left to decompose in a filthy mud trench....;or worse than that, the story about the two people in the usa who have been busted for running an internet child porn site that features pix of children...babies as young as five months... five months!!!!!!
!.....being sexually abused..... if i start to think about what these poor kids went through it drives me mad!
and then if i start to think about what some kids are still going through even as i write..... welli can hardly bear it!.
FARAON....
A Universal law...... Cause and Effect.
I see effects all around me every single day...Life is all it's abundance and complexityand beauty. So what is the Cause? The Law in Universal.. it can't be sidestepped or ignored. And all the 'rabid' (to use your own vocabulary) comments that you spit out can't alter it!
For every effect there HAS to be a cause!
I take your point that the 'Society' might be 'up the creek' in many ways but in my experience it has almost always been a source of instruction and comfort for me.(Even if some of its representatives are slightly bonkers!) But that does not change the fact that we exist and therefore in my way of thinking there must be a Cause....
You may think that Cause rabid and vengeful and and the other stuff that you said... and believe me I have had enough negative experiences and tragedies (is that how you spell it?) in my life in the truth to feel the same way... but when I feel that way I look into the night sky and stare in wonder at the beauty of it all or I watch a bee as it collects honey from the flowers in my garden I know that He is non of the those things that you accuse Him of. ( But again I defend your right to express your opinion... as negative as that seems to me)
Wow... you must really be sore! Or hurting or something. First of all you answer my simple question with a diatribe of abusive innuendo and then when I comment on the fact you immediately hit back with all this hateful stuff!
I hope you have a peaceful night ( where ever you are ). I'm off to bed!
a friend visited us today... it took about five minutes before we were having a general moan about the ways things are!
anyway.. these friends of ours were telling us about the things that go on in the families of elders in various congregations and how these guys are still in office.. .
now i thought that if you were 'appointed' it meant that you had god's blessing and approval... but how does that work out if you are allowing unscriptural things to go on in your own family and yet you are still in office?
A friend visited us today... it took about five minutes before we were having a general moan about the ways things are!
Nothing new there then!
Anyway.
These friends of ours were telling us about the things that go on in the families of elders in various congregations and how these guys are still in office..
Now I thought that if you were 'appointed' it meant that you had God's blessing and approval... but how does that work out if you are allowing unscriptural things to go on in your own family and yet you are still in office? I don't get it.
Don't get me wrong... I have been in the truth for years and have made enough mistakes for God to blast me out of existence... but I came out of 'office' ( I was an elder) and now I worship as an 'invisible one' you know the kind of thing... I go but I don't get involved any more... I give my talks on the school but I don't want to be in ' the front line' anymore. And yet there are elders who flout the clear direction of the Gov. Body when it comes to association with their disfellowshipped family members, there are those who drink a little too much, there are those don't take the lead in the ministry, and yet they remain in office. What is going on????
Thirty years ago we all knew where we stood. There were rules that everyone obeyed ( Well I think thay did!... these days I'm not sure if things are much different now to how they have probably always been) Things back then were black and white... but not anymore... It seems to me that everyone does their own thing.
It's like this notion that we should not be materialistic..... You go to any assembly or convention and look around the car park and tell me that we are not materialistic!!!! When you think about the way that some people in the third world have to live...... it is a joke to say that we are not materialistic!!
I know loads of elders that have spent their whole lives building up businesses whilst we (the congregations) were encouraged to 'keep our life simple' and now... whilst we struggle going out on the work in the cold U.K. many of them have moved to Spain or Portugal to retire in luxury in the sun!!!! It makes a mockery of Jesus' admonition to seek the kingdom first..
Where is all this heading? Perhaps we will be disciplined by God and he will choose to use a more humble people than we are... Perhaps I will be disciplined for speaking my mind. Who knows?
When I was new to the truth I thought that I knew everything and that I had all the answers.... Now I think that I know nothing at all! I have many more questions than I have answers.
Roll on Armageddon... At least then we will know where we stand!
this is a genuine question... i mean no disrespect to anyone...especially to my heavenly father....but i have this gnawing question in my head that just wont go away...... okay... with that out of the way.... let's take the holly and jessica story that hit the headlines in the uk recently...two innocent kids, murdered and left to decompose in a filthy mud trench....;or worse than that, the story about the two people in the usa who have been busted for running an internet child porn site that features pix of children...babies as young as five months... five months!!!!!!
!.....being sexually abused..... if i start to think about what these poor kids went through it drives me mad!
and then if i start to think about what some kids are still going through even as i write..... welli can hardly bear it!.
Thanks for the replies to my question. Some of you seem to feel just like I do.
Here are some specific points:
ISP... If Jehovah is not 'active' as you put it how do you explain the fact that you and I are here now...living and breathing. It says somewhere in scripture that all things exist because of God's Will..(Rev 4:11) If he was not consciously willing all the things that he created to exist wouldn't everything just fold up as he stopped willing them to exist? I don't know ?
DOUBLE EDGE... I think that you and I were probably formed out of the same 'lump' of clay as you seem to express exactly the way I feel... all the mountains and the valleys.... I hate the valleys don't you.
ELSEWHERE... You need some therapy!
NAKED MVISTAR.... I think that it's a wise person who takes out the insurance before the disaster arrives. I agree with you. paradise could be great... but if it never happens I still think that having my understanding of 'The Truth' in my life has made it bearable. And if this is all there is it won't matter one way or the other when I turn to sand, will it.
Tzu... Thanks for the comments... You and I feel the same way. As far as being angry at Jehovah....
Perhaps a little story might cast some light on the subject...
A few years ago now my daughter had a son - our first grandson - he was beautiful and his name was Liam. My daughter took Liam on holiday to Sussex in Southern England... ( I live in the North near Manchester) Three days later I was called and told that they had found him dead in his cot (SIDS) I travelled to Sussex and bought a tiny white coffin and brought liam home for burial. I carried that coffin for three hundred miles on my knee. All the congregation came to the funeral it was a devastatingly difficult time for us all. But for me personally what made it worse was that just a few weeks before my step mum had died from a sudden and catastrophic kidney failure followed just five weeks later by my dad who died of a broken heart I think.
Just as we got that out of the way I started a bible study with my deputy manager at work, and she took the truth and was baptised. She was a very special lady. Sadly she was walking her dog in July of that year and she and her husband were hit by a runaway truck. She (Marie) was killed as was her husband (Rod) and their litle dog. An old lady was also hit and died, as did the driver who had suffered a heart attack at the wheel..
And then just a few months ago my sister ( also in the truth ) fell down the stairs and had a massive blood clot on her brain. We turned the ventilator off ten days later and she was dead within two minutes.... such a precious soul... I can hardly bear to think about it.
On every occassion I 'raged' at Jehovah like a madman. What had my grandson done? He was only five months old! My step mum was only 52 and my dad was.... well he was just my dad.. and I loved him. Marie was a different matter... She loved the truth and was planning to become a pioneer.. full of hope full of love for Jehovah and by sheer chance she happened to be at the wrong place at the wrong time...
And my sister..... She had just come home from a circuuit assembly and was preparing for the groups study when she fell.... She loved Jehovah so much.. how could he let such a thing happen to her?
I'll tell you in truth I have raged to hard at Jehovah that it hurt....
But back to your comment about the wisdom of such a thing. I really believe that Jehovah would expect no less from us. We are dust ... dying and diseased dust at that.. and am sure that I am closer to him now because I have been open and honest with him about the way I felt.
So do I think it's wrong to be angry at Jehovah... No I don't... He has broad enough shoulders to handle any human's raving when they are broken in spirit. Well that's what i think anyway.
TR... I think that you too need therapy !
OUTSIDER FRIEND... I concur with your comment... why spit out filth when all I did was ask a reasonable question. ITR and ELSEWHERE should put their sense of decency into gear before they open their mouths perhaps. Mind you I would defend to the death their right to have their opinion and express it... but some sort of decency would be nice boyz!
Anyways... that's about all I have to say for now. Thanks for the comments so far.
this is a genuine question... i mean no disrespect to anyone...especially to my heavenly father....but i have this gnawing question in my head that just wont go away...... okay... with that out of the way.... let's take the holly and jessica story that hit the headlines in the uk recently...two innocent kids, murdered and left to decompose in a filthy mud trench....;or worse than that, the story about the two people in the usa who have been busted for running an internet child porn site that features pix of children...babies as young as five months... five months!!!!!!
!.....being sexually abused..... if i start to think about what these poor kids went through it drives me mad!
and then if i start to think about what some kids are still going through even as i write..... welli can hardly bear it!.
First of all...
This is a genuine question... I mean no disrespect to ANYONE...especially to my Heavenly Father....but I have this gnawing question in my head that just wont go away.....
Okay... with that out of the way...
Let's take the Holly and Jessica story that hit the headlines in the UK recently...two innocent kids, murdered and left to decompose in a filthy mud trench....;or worse than that, the story about the two people in the USA who have been busted for running an internet child porn site that features pix of children...babies as young as five months... FIVE MONTHS!!!!!!!.....being sexually abused....
If I start to think about what these poor kids went through it drives me mad! And then if I start to think about what some kids are still going through even as I write..... wellI can hardly bear it!
It's as if the whole system is becoming like a gigantic land of Canaan.
But how it is possible that my tender, caring, loving Father allows these terrible things to go on... and thing probably much worse...hour after hour....day after day.. month after month... year after long year ?
Oh I know about 'The Issue'of God's right to rulethat has to be settled.. but why do we, seemingly the weakest part of the creation, have to bare the brunt of all this satanic activity? Why is the world so HARD when we are all so soft and vunerable and easily hurt?
WHY?
I know that everything that is wrong will, one day be put right, in God's due time... but people have been hurting for so long.....why does it not end?
If I were God I feel that I would have to do something... anything to stop the madness.
What are your views... positives would be nice... I have enough negative thought of my own and don't need any more... come on... give me some answers that will satisfy and encourage me to continue to believe and understand.
Thanks
has anyone got any views on hypnosis?
the wt view seems to be that it is on par with 'binding others with a spell' what do you think?
Hi... My reasons for asking for views on hypnosis is that I am suffering from Hep.B induced chronic liver disease due to the fact that my immune system has not 'kicked in' to fight the virus ( it happens to about 5% of people infected!). Any other thoughts on the subject? What about idea about alternative treatment? I'm on Lamivudine tablets to suppress the virus at the moment. But I' am running out of time.. so to speak. get back if you have any constructive suggestios.
Cheers
has anyone got any views on hypnosis?
the wt view seems to be that it is on par with 'binding others with a spell' what do you think?
Has anyone got any views on hypnosis? The WT view seems to be that it is on par with 'binding others with a spell' What do you think?
jehovah's witnesses/wts have reached "critical mass" - says ex-circuit overseer.
------posting copied from h2o-----.
posted by xelder [seeker4] on july 13, 2000 at 12:00:52 {rn3hpwrs1eubi2tgjvegd9bhhxgwag}:.
Thanks for the welcome...
I thought I was alone ... it's a comfort to know that I am not!
I have a question....Those of you who have been where I am at the moment,,, do you still have a 'relationship' with Jehovah? Or does leaving the organisation sever the relationship with Jehovah. And if it does how do you fill your spiritual needs now?
For me the two are inextricably (is that how you spell it?) linked. I have never worshipped God in any other way. And besides... if Jehovah is the kind of Creator and Father that I believe that he is... surely he would understand that I have tried to worship Him in this way with a pure motive... You can't be condemned for that can you? Let's say, for the sake of argument that the stuff that the WT Society has taught me for the past 30 odd years is not accurate... surely Jehovah would make allowances for that... Wouldn't he?
I think that the biggest problem that we have in The Truth is that we are frightened of speaking our minds.. You know... telling it as it really is... Like the love that we are supposed to have amongst us.... I see it only rarely... and yet we wax lyrical about it all the time.. Like the meetiings being 'brilliant' when in reality they're not anymore. Or is it me that has become cynical?
Its a bit like the story of the Kings new clothes... Everybody knows that he's naked but nobody dares to say anything...
I long to go to the meetings and feel energised like a I used to do years ago when my kids were young... but they ( the meetings not my kids!!) have become so boring and monotonous. I truely feel that I could spend my time in much more productive way... And then I start to beat myself up and think that it must be my fault... I must have a weak faith or something.T
The thing is I REALLY want to be there.. I REALLY want to be a part of the people who worship God with Spirit & Truth.. I REALLY need to sort this out...in my head... somehow!!
Questions, questions... So many questions...
Anyway... I'm rambling a bit now. I had better close.
Kagloo
jehovah's witnesses/wts have reached "critical mass" - says ex-circuit overseer.
------posting copied from h2o-----.
posted by xelder [seeker4] on july 13, 2000 at 12:00:52 {rn3hpwrs1eubi2tgjvegd9bhhxgwag}:.
Hiya,,,
Bear with me.... this is a first for me and I feel a little 'guilty' 'disloyal'.
I've been in the truth for 32 years.. min.serv.elder...all that kind of thing. Not in office any more... my choice.
I read the items about the society being in 'critical mass' and although I can't fault the facts I keep asking myself the same question over and over again... If Jesus Christ is the Head of the congregation why is there so much confusion and man-made rule making? Where I live one congregation has a rule that brothers can't have a beard - and in the same town the sister congregation says it's no problem!! Just a silly little thing I know... but where is the unity ?
Surely Jehovah wouldn't play 'games' with us... would he? There must be a reason why these things are going on... I know I have The Truth... it all makes sense,,, well the stuff in The Scriptures does... it's the Organisational stuff that I am having difficulty with...!
I don't know if that made sense .. but for the first time in my life I had to say it!
want to be loyal. I want to show Jehovah that I love everything that he has done for me over these years and yet I am so deeply troubled about the state of the congregations.. the arrogance of some of the elders, and the total disinterest of others.... What has happened to us? What is to become of us? The Truth is eternal...it is precious... so why are things getting to a state of critical mass?
I have no answers anymore... Just questions.
