hey,.
i'm relatively new here and wondered if any ex-elders (or indeed anyone who knows) could tell me what's so secret about the "shepherd the flock" book.. what is in that book that they don't want ordinary publishers to see?.
i haven't met an elder yet that can give me a good answer as to why it's kept so quiet.. any help would be gratefully received.
Hey,
I'm relatively new here and wondered if any Ex-Elders (or indeed anyone who knows) could tell me what's so secret about the "Shepherd the Flock" book.
What is in that book that they don't want ordinary publishers to see?
I haven't met an Elder yet that can give me a good answer as to why it's kept so quiet.
Any help would be gratefully received.
this is crazy.. just go under each topic on this sight and read.
it speaks on each topic we have touched on in this forum and bascially gives thier "answer" and thoughts as silly as some are.
xandria
Xandria
If you feel that I have been offensive, then I truly do apologise.
It was never my intention to upset anyone.
Child abuse is a subject that is very emotive at the best of times. Yes, I will admit, that man made me very angry (and it was six years now, as for knowing where he is, he moved away, up country somewhere and I admit I haven't tried to find out where as i'm not even sure how to go about something like that. He cut off all contact with the congregation, and as far as I know hasn't made contact with JW's again. The police may be aware of where he is, I do not know.)
He had no family that I know of and certainly none that are witnesses. This is a question and please I'm not being offensive I just want your opinion on it. How would you go about haveing him institutionalised when according to a court of law he has done no wrong and there is nothing wrong with him? You are right when you say he should be institutionalised. I just don't see how that can happen in this particular case.
I do care about where he is and what he could be doing... I expect it's something that also concerns my brother and his family. But what can we do?
The only comfort they have had is the part you highlighted originaly, "wait on God". That is why I asked if you believed in God. I wasn't trying to attack you or annoy you or anything else... I just wondered if you did believe in God and if you did, how did you feel about the "wait on God" aspect. Did it help you do you think it's viable. That was all I was wondering. I worded it wrong, I should have filled out why I was asking you this, but of course, then everyone jumped off the deepend and it scaled from there.
I really am very sorry if I've upset you or anyone else here.
I have gone back over my own posts and I while I stand by what I was trying to say I realise that I haven't said it very well and have come across offensively. I apologise.
.
i've only just joined but i would be grateful if you could give me some information on this ngo business.. i live in england, am completly ignorant and no nothing about the un (everything i learnt in school went in one ear and out the other as did much else i learnt!).
i would be grateful if someone could explain what ngo is exactly and how jw's were involved with it.. much appreciated.
Hawkaw
Thanks for the links.
Can I just clear something up?
I take it that because WBTS is a religion they are automatically a NGO, even though they have left the NGO directory they are still NGO? Are they NGO purely by definition of status?
If I organised a religion tomorrow ( and made loads of money!) would I automatically become a NGO?
The fact that they actively signed an agreement aligned them with the UN and not NGO specifically. have I got that right?
I read the articles and even got out my cdrom to check! Oh dear!
Larc,
How right you are! small doses! Like nothing at all!
I thought I'd declared that I was going to shave my hair off and run round naked with a pitchfork in my hand!
Horror, true horror on their faces! (My inlaws, who I just love to bug anyway!) My mother in law even went to far as to say that if I did another twenty hours on the service each day I'd not have these doubts. (HUH? fail to see connection there!)
I absolutely loved informing her and then showing her how the freedom book did say 1975 was a "landmark" year. she denied it so firmly, saying it was what people had seen into it and not what was actaully there!
Thansk to several of your and other threads I was able to show exactly where they did say it!
Oh well..... small doses like you said!
this is crazy.. just go under each topic on this sight and read.
it speaks on each topic we have touched on in this forum and bascially gives thier "answer" and thoughts as silly as some are.
xandria
Xandria,
Firstly, I have to say that I am truly sorry that you suffered as a child. I take it you were one that was failed by the elders and for that too I am sorry.
But I must make it clear that I have not posted here to attack, So now I'm a Apologetic JW, (whatever that is!) to you all.
I actually came here to find answers and some help, I consider myself to be failry open minded and am ready to listen to both sides of everything. But in this thread I have found no answers, only things that have confused me and to be honest upset me a little.
I have never meant to be offensive to any of you but if that is the way you want to READ into my postings then go ahead. Be offended. But it was never meant to be that way.
I expect you think "Good contribution" is where everyone agrees blindly with you. All I can say is whatever happened to supposed "Freedon of speech"?
You can't change the basic truth. Not even MANY elders fail. My families case is not unique.
If one member of a family steals do they all steal? Is it wise to say they all steal?
Some Social workers foul up chronically.... but does that mean the other percent that work damn hard also foul up chronically?
Elders foul up chronically but do they all foul up chronically?
Bosho: apparently you don't get what I am saying. An it has become apparent to me that I am going to have to very specific with you. Counseling doesn't mean endangering a child.
IF the Eldership were to take action ( which MANY don't) They would of removed him away from all children in ANY congregation. NOT just the one congregation that he was in, where everyone watched him until he left. ( your words not mine- He left.. do you even know where he went ? DO you know that or IF other children are safe? DO you even CARE .. or just care enough that HE left your CONGREGATION. )
Read my post again and you'll see what happened!
The other congregation were all informed about him.
I object STRONGLY to you inferring that I do not care about children.
You don't know me at all. I haven't once accused you of anything that warrants that kind of statement from you!
I do care which is one of the reasons I came to this website in the first place!
Now who's being offensive and attacking?
SO that means he can go to another congregation and is a danger to another CHILD. The Eldership is suppost to be shepards of the flock .. well they did not step in enough to protect another child.. even if that meant putting him away as a ward of the state institution. TO GET counseling. COUNSELING doesn't always mean the COUNSEL of the ELDERSHIP. They do not care one way or another .by allowing this person to continue on somewhere else.
How can they "put him away" when he was never found guilty?
How can they possibly stop him? Should they "Take him out" one evening on their way home from the group? Is this what you mean? I don't think you do. But what else could they do? Legally they didn't have a leg to stand on.
I am stating on this issue that THE ELDERSHIP should of took more of a stance to PROTECT the community and other children within other CONGREGATIONS rather than let this person fade into the big picture again AND start all over. The Elders would of also kept in fellowship with him ( I did not say ANYTHING about children.. no child should be around him). Any GODLY infulence ( PASTOR, ELDER, RABBI.. ) could not hurt this person when he is doing such evil.
You talk here as you were witness to this very case. You have no idea what steps were taken.
He's still a menace to society, I expect his name in on a list held in government somewhere. To be dragged out again when he attacks again (which I hope never happens) but it'll be too late then.
NO, my niece was failed by the law courts and not the elders.
He was banned from the congregation (and in my opinion he should have been banned from every congregation, but that's the real issue which everyone here misses).
As for "MENTALLY IL", so? Does that knowledge help me neice? Oh that's okay...he's ill! I think not! He gave up every right he had when he laid hands on the other girl. He may be ill and one day I may find it in my heart to feel sorry for him... not yet though! But if he's ill, then keeping him away from the congregation was a good call.
What else would you have them do?
He had the opportunity of going to other congregation to receive "fellowship" if he choose. His choice.
What would you have them do? Let him back into the congregation so the elders could have "GOLDY fellowship" with him so that not only my niece would see him on a regular basis but also the other little girl involved?
He choose to leave himself, what do you suggest then?
I believe in this case they did what was best. But I am not saying that they always do best.
You seem to think I'm attacking you. I'm not. All I have done is point out that it can be very dangerous to accuse en mass.
You say I've read into things. Up to you of course, but I disagree. Unless of course your words are ambigious.
I still think that you are all missing the big picture here.
The issue isn't whether elders fail or not, a small thing called imperfection will trip anyone up anytime.
I think the real issue (and the one that brought me here in the first place) is the "One Witness Policy" .
I have spoken to several elders and they all find it hard to go along with but (as I'm sure you'll guess, they do go along with it.)
That's why I found your post so upsetting! You're attacking the wrong aspect of this!
Yes, so they cock-up and big time! Who doesn't? Yes, they need to be held accountable and they will be.
But this one Witness business is what gets me and that's what I wanted opinions on.
Every thread on Child abuse seems to miss this (I apologise if I've missed one. I haven't got time to read every thread!)
You all seem to centre on the elders failing which is human imperfection and yes sometimes downright evilness on their parts and yes they should he held accountable! But surly this policy is a far more important issue to address as this means that the elders can't do anything at all (except suggest going to the police, which before you jump up on your high horses is what, despite what you want to think, is what most of them do) if only one witness is brought forward! (How many children are abused in pairs?)
THis is what has me deeply worried.
I just felt that the issue of elders failing had been flogged to death and the real problem was being ignored. I can understand your need to accuse, just accuse the right parties and not everyone.
regards bosho
SpiceItUp,
Both ways? Are you kidding----They need to stop treeating the elders like they are equipped to handle such cases. I'm sorry but the average elder that has the education of a GED is NOT qualified to even recommend courses of action for the abused---they need to learn one simple sentence --- "I think you need to report this to the appropiate authorities as this is a criminal offense". What is so difficult.
I asked my mother a question and will pose it to you now as well---- If someone in the congregation witnessed another member murdering someone or stealing something and they went to the elders....should the elders report this matter to the local authorities or shold they "wait on god"?
Firstly, I'm glad you can laugh at this!
Your right! The Elders are not equipped to deal with this and the policy should be changed. I have never said otherwise.
It takes a trained person to counsel abuse victims. And the elders do say "I think you need to report this to the appropriate authorities as this is a criminal offense" They did to my Brother and his wife. And the two cases close to us recently.
As for the question you asked your mother. It all boils down to this one Witness thing again.
There are so many aspects you would HAVE to look at. Does the person acusing have a grudge against the one acused. (Before you find that amusing, yes it does happen!) If not then yes, I would say report it to the police. Especially if it was murder.
I must be the only witness alive then, that can truly say that if I saw a murder, or someone stealing, or suspected child abuse, I wouldn't even give the elders a second thought. I'd go directly to the police. And then to the elders.
I can see the benefits for two witnesses for alot of things... pretty much eliminates the "I'll get you for that!" situation. BUT it doesn't work with child abuse. And once again, I don't think the fault here lies with the elders but with the source of the policy.
If the society makes a direct turn around on that policy then I'll say "Well done!" if they don't....
that's what this whole thing is about for me.
regards
Bosho
Edited by - bosho on 25 July 2002 11:36:25
this is crazy.. just go under each topic on this sight and read.
it speaks on each topic we have touched on in this forum and bascially gives thier "answer" and thoughts as silly as some are.
xandria
So now you say they need counselling.
I think you're slightly mixed up here. The elders responsibility is to the Children first. In the case of my neice, the man was adamant he had done nothing. How do you counsel that?
You can't take take chances with children.
Most adults can protect themselves. Children can't.
You say the elders should have counselled him and then what?
Let him back in to carry on?
As it stands that is no better than what the elders have done in the cases shown in Panorama.
Sorry, but you can't have it both ways.
.
how can all of you say that you are disgusted etc when you dont know any thing about the organisation?.
im sure you didnt really worry before but now you are all acting upset etc.. i stress to say that it is accusations not fact.. i am 16 and found the program annoying in the fact that we were portrayed completely wrong.. the bbc could say what they liked.. i think that people should be more sincere and less assuming.. thanks, mark
Xander,
You asked about verifying the blood thing.
This might be a change, so I'd like you to verify, if possible. Last I understood, two publications were studied before baptism - the 'Knowledge' book and a brochure that was out at the time - I don't remember the name, but it had a picture of several people of different nationalities on the cover and was regarding a 'god of love' or somesuch - maybe "Does God Really Care About Us?". The 'blood' brochure was definately something we were told NOT to study with the householders - indeed, it was implied we should skirt the question until they were baptised.
The brochure is called "What does God require of us?" This one is studied first as it gives an overall view of God's requirements in brief and then the Knowledge book goes into detail.
Lesson 12 of the brochure is called "Showing Respect for Life and Blood."
Paragraph Five and Six quoted here (I've taken it straight from the CDROM and pasted it here):
*** rq 25 12 Showing Respect for Life and Blood ***
6. Is it wrong to accept a blood transfusion? Remember, Jehovah requires that we abstain from blood. This means that we must not take into our bodies in any way at all other peoples blood or even our own blood that has been stored. (Acts 21:25) So true Christians will not accept a blood transfusion. They will accept other kinds of medical treatment, such as transfusion of nonblood products. They want to live, but they will not try to save their life by breaking Gods laws.Matthew 16:25.
So apparantly it's no longer in the new Worship book as this is studied after the brochure and Knowledge book. (I believe if the person studying wants more information then the brochure on BLood is studied)
As for the blood card, we were told in our meeting in January that they wouldn't be giving out new cards as the society had been advised (by their legal team) that just because they were a year old they were still legally valid (which is the whole point I believe)
So I guess to keep costs down, they won't be updated en mass. However if you require a new one you can ask your congregation secretary who will give you a new card.
Hope this helps.
.
i've only just joined but i would be grateful if you could give me some information on this ngo business.. i live in england, am completly ignorant and no nothing about the un (everything i learnt in school went in one ear and out the other as did much else i learnt!).
i would be grateful if someone could explain what ngo is exactly and how jw's were involved with it.. much appreciated.
Thanks Jan
The fire alarm has gone off so I really have to go and save the tea, but I'm very grateful for your reference and I will be going there as soon as I can!
thanks again to everyone!
.
i've only just joined but i would be grateful if you could give me some information on this ngo business.. i live in england, am completly ignorant and no nothing about the un (everything i learnt in school went in one ear and out the other as did much else i learnt!).
i would be grateful if someone could explain what ngo is exactly and how jw's were involved with it.. much appreciated.
oh well!
The fire alarm will let me know when it's cooked!
I just wanted to say thanks to everyone for being so suportive, (especialy xander and larc)
I surely will let everyone here know what sort of someback I get from bethel (if any!)
I bet they then forward the letter to my elders who will want to know where I found all the information.
What happens to people who speak to "apostates" ( no offense!) again? I may be on here as more than a bystander soon!
.
i've only just joined but i would be grateful if you could give me some information on this ngo business.. i live in england, am completly ignorant and no nothing about the un (everything i learnt in school went in one ear and out the other as did much else i learnt!).
i would be grateful if someone could explain what ngo is exactly and how jw's were involved with it.. much appreciated.
I really have to go and make sure tea doesn't burn... and then of course it's the group!?!
But I will be coming back here later to see what's what!
.
i've only just joined but i would be grateful if you could give me some information on this ngo business.. i live in england, am completly ignorant and no nothing about the un (everything i learnt in school went in one ear and out the other as did much else i learnt!).
i would be grateful if someone could explain what ngo is exactly and how jw's were involved with it.. much appreciated.
Xander
Funnily enough, I accepted the changing of the times quite easily.
Several things in my short lifetime have been changed... I can imagine the outcry when Birthdays and christmasses were banned. Not that I am that old!
I reasoned along the scriptural lines of the light getting brighter...etc.etc
No, what's thrown me is this business of being in NGO and the navy thing.
And yes I too was bullied for being a witness. I don't think there's witness kid alive that doesn't know what being kicked and spat on is like.
