Posts by bebu
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16
Israelite tabernacle and temples....of pagan origin?
by Alana ini believe that it was the history channel that i was watching this weekend....it was about egypt--land of the gods.
in it is talked about the ancient gods of egypt and the elaborate egyptian temples.
then, it spoke of how when the israelites left egypt how they at first had their movable tabernacle and then their temples and how the set-up of them with the courtyards and the holy and most holy places were based upon the pharoahic worship and temples of the egyptians.
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bebu
Dr. David Livingston was also greatly loved by the Africans he served, and his heart was kept by the tribes to be buried in their land when he finally died (and his body returned to England). He didn't bring a gravy train to Africa to bribe locals
Gladys Aylward saved orphans in China from being killed by invading Japanese troops. She was highly honored there as being a woman of love and integrity. (Katherine Hepburn starred as Gladys in an Oscar-winning film long time back.)
William Carey back in the early 1800s started universities and schools for girls, and worked toward abolishing satee, the rite where a widow throws herself onto her husband burning funeral pyre.
There's a long line of missionaries that have inspired positive changes in this world.
But obviously, it is unrealistic to think that missionaries have always followed their beliefs perfectly. (Mother Theresa confessed regularly to a priest, as you know.) ...And it seems that there are many folks here on this board with very high standards, judging others. But all people will be judged by their own standards, so being morally aloof can be dangerous. The knife cuts both ways if you judge.
If the Indians hate Christianity so much, why do any convert? It is the fanatical Hindus (who also fight the Muslims with the same fanaticism) who feel threatened because they are losing their firm position of status built on the backs of low-status/outcast classes. Education/travel of these lower classes has helped them see that any other place in the world they are not outcasts... Radical Hindus don't want any defectors, whether to Islam, Buddhism, or Christianity. The caste system is now a system for controlling people.
Even as I write this, there are still things that can be appreciated within Hinduism, which speak of truths that resonate with the gospel. Many things within their culture which can be respected and appreciated.
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Concerning Egyptian paganism:
Jesus is an historical figure, whereas there hasn't been records to attest to the historicity of all the various 'gods', no matter their apparent similarities.
If you have an argument that
Igor is an international student from Russia to the US;
Igor is attending Harvard;
Igor had to pass strict TOEFL score levels to be admitted;
Igor is studying law;
Therefore, Igor must speak fluent English,
then you would have an inductive argument that is indeed very strong, and has a very high probability to be true. However, if one then discovered another piece of information:
Igor is actually a deaf-mute,
then the whole argument is now deductive, having one piece of information that, if proven to be true, renders all the other premises moot. This one premise determines the truth of the whole argument.
Likewise, the historicity of the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus throws a big wrench into an interesting argument about the Bible being utterly fabricated, and nothing more than borrowed Egyptian paganism. But claiming that Christianity is such an outgrowth without first thoroughly disproving its historical claims is ignoring the real issue. I find it rather interesting that many folks focus on pagan probabilities and ignore the more tangible argument.
The Catholics proclaim the mystery of their faith each week: Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again. It is the crux of all Christian faith: If Christ is not historical and did not die on the cross, or if Christ did not rise from the dead, then we could never say "Christ will come again."
(BTW, I'm not Catholic, but was raised one. )
bebu
...vowing not to look at this thread for a loooong time so that I can get some work done 'round here!
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16
Israelite tabernacle and temples....of pagan origin?
by Alana ini believe that it was the history channel that i was watching this weekend....it was about egypt--land of the gods.
in it is talked about the ancient gods of egypt and the elaborate egyptian temples.
then, it spoke of how when the israelites left egypt how they at first had their movable tabernacle and then their temples and how the set-up of them with the courtyards and the holy and most holy places were based upon the pharoahic worship and temples of the egyptians.
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bebu
It wasn't likely that Israel was going to develop an archetectural style from scratch.
Right. Many good points there! And no culture developed in a vacuum. (Even Egypt had a beginning, and was influenced by neighboring cultures, BTW...)
I think that it is not such a terrible thing to assert that God used concepts that were already around the Hebrews/Jews. The 10 commandments is written in a style common to contracts made between vassals and rulers. Even Abraham, when he made a sacrifice on an altar, had learned these concepts from the culture in which he grew up; he did not create them himself.
The assumption that every concept/style originated with Biblical authors or characters is not true. It shakes the beliefs of some folks, but if you turn the telescope around and look thru the other end, you see other kinds of truth entirely.
For one thing, you see that God has placed truths in each culture as pegs, spots where He could hang the gospel. Sacrifice is a commonly understood idea thru out all races, for example, as men entreaty their god(s) for some favor. Certain places are designated as being holier/sacred than others. Certain writings and traditions are given prominence. Certain events get celebrated. What is right/clean/good are concepts that, tho' there can be disagreements, everyone understands.
For another thing, you see that God is being very kind and gracious, respecting the cultures of men. He is not the angry, fascist Jehovah of the WT. He stoops down to speak with us in the places where we are at, in this moment; not creating a "perfect culture" (a pure language??), demanding that we must join--or else. God has such divine humility. It is a relief to think that God doesn't automatically reject everything that man creates. He is a lot more relaxed about "form" than you've heard. And culture is a "form" for expression.
So, I believe there are universal concepts that all races can understand, and that God used a particular primitive one, that had influence from a more advanced one, to reveal Himself. He pulled from what was around to communicate, and revealed Himself in new ways as well. Is that scandalous? I don't think so. It does means that folks who built their theology on the foundation that "Israel was going to develop an archetectural style/theology/culture from scratch" are going to be shaken.
BTW, in Christian missions, as opposed to JW missions, the missionary looks for the truths and concepts that are already there in the culture. This is called 'contextualization'. Is this culture similar to the OT culture, or do they have well-developed sciences? Who are their gods/demons? How effective is their god(s)? How do the people deal with shame and/or guilt? What kind of truths do their writings/rituals reveal? What stories do they tell? What is important? What are their symbols? Etc. etc.
It is not necessary to reinvent the whole culture, but within the new culture, working just with what they already have, it is possible to adapt their cultural stories/symbols and contextualize the gospel to them. It is a rather interesting field, actually, combining all the social sciences with communication.
Of course, this is why JWs feel superior to Christians, as they refuse to deal with anything "pagan", and won't touch Christmas or Easter or birthdays or.. or... or... Bad news, guys: so much of what is part of our everyday life comes from odd places (but you all already knew that!) .
Anyway, I think God has already shown that He was willing to contextualize personally, by putting the sacred Word into the vulgar human context. Incarnation.
Well, this was a 'quick' agreement with gitasatsangha that got waaaay out of hand...
bebu
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15
JW's and Mormons (**again!**)
by figureheaduk ina few days back i started a thread called "jw's and mormons", which seemed to get a few replies.
however, whenever i tried to open the thread i kept getting one of those horrible "error" screens that seemed to have been plaguing the forum recently.
now it seems as if the thread has gone for good.. the original questions i asked were along the lines of.
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bebu
I've had some interesting experiences talking with Mormons. Recently I lent 2 missionaries a book of the facsimiles taken from the Pearl of Great Price, which has 'new scripture' in it. The Book of Abraham shows immediately that ol' Joseph Smith was a very cunning and deceitful guy.
Joseph Smith bought some papyrii excavated from Egypt from someone passing thru his area. He declared that they were actual autobiographical writings from Abraham! No one knew Egyptian back then, as the Rosetta stone was not yet discovered. So no one was able to disprove his claim.
Then, when the Rosetta stone was discovered a number of years ago, the original papyrii were not available to check the translation. However, the Smithsonian discovered the originals in their storage area (in the 1970s I think), and returned it to the church--and Egyptologists have unanimously rejected Smith's translation. The Book of Abraham is a copy of a funeral rites text, commonly buried with mummies. More than one Mormon has left the church on account of this exposure--and these days, the Mormons barely pay attention to this book, in order to avoid troubles in their ranks.
Both Joseph Smith and CT Russel were masons-- the Mormon temple rite is actually almost verbatim the same as masonic temple rite.
Smith enjoyed giving talks on everything. He was quoted as saying that the moon was inhabited by folks who dressed like Quakers, and were about 6 feet tall.
Smith was a womanizer, too. Before the everlasting covenant of plural marriage came out (and lasted only 50 years!), Smith had been secretly seducing several women, married and single, telling them that God had given him the word that they were his wife for eternity, so relations were ok. Compare Russell.
Smith's wife, like Russell's wife, got aggravated at her husband's enormous ego. There were spats.
There was a big power struggle after the death of Joseph Smith.
Mormons and JWs avoid the message in the Bible by different methods. JWs just mistranslate the Bible to say what they want it to say; Mormons say the Bible was corrupted, and Smith is God's prophet, restoring the 'lost' gospel.
Mormons are told to avoid independent thinking. They are warned against reading materials by their apostates (or any one else; this is 'persecution').
There are lots of similarities in changes of doctrines (e.g., "Adam is God", espoused by Brigham Young; quietly reversed later on...).
With all these troubles, their ace in the hole is "the burning bosom". This clutching at a warm feeling of certainty is what their testimony stands on, even when all else fails.
But my sister-in-law, her husband, and their 4 kids all came out of the Mormon church after 24 years in it. So, even her burning bosom couldn't withstand the proof that hit her hard on the web.
This internet is a pretty good thing, just for her sake alone.
bebu
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"We Want You To Know That the Governing Body LOVES You"
by minimus inat a number of elder's meetings with the circuit and district overseers, over the years, we were told that the governing body loved us.
the gb were said to truly appreciate all of our hard work in behalf of jehovah god and his organization..............i thought thay you would be pleased to know how the governing body feels about us.
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bebu
John 15:13 Greater love has no one than this, that he lay down his life for his friends.
Laying down your life may also mean daily self-sacrifice (which seems to be harder than just dying, to me!). Good parents know what love is. Good friends do. True lovers do.
If Jesus set the standard, why aren't they following his example? Isn't this what they charge christiendom with failing?
bebu
who is too tired to fix all the font problems
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I Want My Dub Friend To See The Truth
by ADubsFriend inhello all.. i used to post here as imissthedub.
after almost 2 years, the dub and i are now in contact and friends.
this is now a strictly platonic relationship, and always will be.
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bebu
There are some great ideas here. Like you, I am hoping to help a friend out of the JWs.
One approach that has helped me is to simply be totally honest, and it works with pretty much any religon/philosophy you're having trouble with: "I realize that you don't have a problem with the doctrines of the WT, but I've been running into problems. As long as they are unresolved, I can't ever see myself becoming a JW. I am sure that if the WT is the truth, then there must be a way to explain these difficulties, but so far no one has. Perhaps you could show me where I'm mistaken, or being misled..." They might feel glad to help you, and be willing to even look at what is causing you trouble.
Be sincere! If they give any credible argument, acknowledge it, because it helps establish that you are not just playing like a partisan but can recognize truthful points. It takes the pressure off of "proving" something against him, and puts the subject inbetween where you can show him that you are really trying to be objective. You can agree with part of an argument, and disagree/disprove the rest, if that is right.
(BTW, so far no one has been able to give me a convincing argument to overcome the hurdles for JW doctrines.)
With my JW friend, I plant certain attitudes/ideas in ways she can accept. For example, we've discussed North Korea (which she doesn't know too much about, unfortunately). The advantage of withholding information from the citizens results in their being convinced that Americans are babykillers, N. Korea is paradise on earth, and their leader is God. "If only N. Koreans had telephones or TVs! They don't, of course, as that would spoil the mirage. But if they did--and if they started to use them! How long do you think that they'd keep on believing that they lived in paradise? Or that their leader is God?"
The result was that I could show her that when we don't have enough information--or that we've been given bad information--we can be seriously misled.
So, stress to him when it seems appropriate, that you are NOT interested in basing your opinions and arguments on falsehoods and rumors. You want to have enough information, and you want to be sure it is GOOD information. Establish that as your attitude, and challenge him to show you if what you've run into is false (if shouldn't matter the source as long as the information is TRUE, right??). Remind him of this, if he begins to backpedal.
Good luck, and let us know when anything develops further. As for me and my friend, we're supposed to be discussing the trinity booklet sometime... It keeps getting postponed.
bebu
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Did You Attend Meetings When You Were Away On Holiday?
by Englishman inmy parents did.
as a youth, i would accompany my parents to wherever they decided to holiday that year.
number 1 priority was to find the local kingdom hall!
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bebu
I can't imagine being forced to attend 5 meetings a week, and then being shouldered with guilt for not being able to attend all the meetings while on vacation.
Whenever my husband and I travel, we usually find a local protestant church in the neighborhood to attend. We look at how close and what time (11 am is nicer) more than the specific denomination.
But we are FREE. We don't have to go, and we don't feel guilty if we don't. (We are always glad we did, though.) We really enjoy the fellowship of worshiping God with others--it isn't a burden at all!
Guilt is a horrible motivator! Especially for anything long-term.
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Oneness symbol
by Introspection inok - i'm all for interfaith dialogues and stuff like that to promote better understanding, but i think this is just a little silly.
i saw this product at a show recently and frankly i find it hard to take it seriously, check this out:.
http://www.onenessjewelry.com/index.html.
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bebu
Thousands now wear this stylish & stunning new line of spiritual jewelry to promote peace. Join the crowd, get your very own Oneness peace symbol, and become an Ambassador of Peace!
I think someone's more interested in making a buck off of "peace" than anything else. I thought the design was pretty silly, too.
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www.escapethewatchtower.com new website
by Hamas ini just changed that slow ass free web hosting and web redirection.
check it out now !
( the funk soul brother )
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bebu
Thanks for the tip, Maryanne/marsal!!!
bebu