Posts by bebu

i have been raised in the congregration, but left it when i was a child because my mom left too, but we still retatined the core belifs including the ressurection and the blasphemous pagan influence on mainstream churches.

my mom has recently returned to the congregation, and it has helped her a lot.

bebu

You want to cut to the chase to find out if the WTS is really God's mouthpiece?

Court Transcript Of JW Elders Admitting To False Doctrine


In November 1954, the Douglas Walsh trial was held in the Scottish Court of Sessions, in which the Watchtower Society tried to establish before the British court that certain of its members were ordained ministers. High ranking leaders of the Society testified, including vice-president Fred Franz and legal counsel for the Society, Haydon C. Covington. Covington's testimony before the attorney for the Ministry of Labour and National Service included the following: Q. Is it not vital to speak the truth on religious matters? A. It certainly is. Q. Is there in your view room in a religion for a change of interpretation of Holy Writ from time to time? A. There is every reason for a change in interpretation as we view it, of the Bible. Our view becomes more clear as we see the prophesy fulfilled by time. Q. You have promulgated -- forgive the word -- false prophesy? A. We have -- I do not think we have promulgated false prophesy, there have been statements that were erronious, that is the way I put it, and mistaken. Q. Is it a most vital consideration in the present situation of the world to know if the prophesy can be interpreted into terms of fact, when Christ's Second Coming was? A. That is true, and we have always striven to see that we have the truth before we utter it. We go on the very best information we have but we cannot wait until we get perfect, because if we wait until we get perfect we would never be able to speak. Q. Let us follow that up just a little. It was promulgated as a matter which must be believed by all members of Jehovah's Witnesses that the Lord's Second Coming took place in 1874? A. I am not familiar with that. You are speaking on a matter that I know nothing of. Q. You heard Mr. Franz's evidence? A. I heard Mr. Franz testify, but I am not familiar with what he said on that, I mean the subject matter of what he was talking about, so I cannot answer any more than you can, having heard what he said. Q. Leave me out of it? A. That is the source of my information, what I have heard in court. Q. You have studied the literature of your movement? A. Yes, but not all of it. I have not studied the seven volumes of "Studies in the Scriptures," and I have not studied this matter that you are mentioning now of 1874. I am not at all familiar with that. Q. Assume from me that it was promulgated as authoritative by the Society that Christ's Second Coming was in 1874? A. Taking that assumption as a fact, it is a hypothetical statement. Q. That was the publication of false prophesy? A. That was the publication of a false prophesy, it was a false statement or an erronious statement in fulfilment of a prophesy that was false or erronious. Q. And that had to be believed by the whole of Jehovah's Witnesses? A. Yes, because you must understand we must have unity, we cannot have disunity with a lot of people going every way, an army is supposed to march in step. Q. You do not believe in the worldly armies, do you? A. We believe in the Christian Army of God. Q. Do you believe in the worldly armies? A. We have nothing to say about that, we do not preach against them, we merely say that the worldly armies, like the nations of the world today, are a part of Satan's Organization, and we do not take part in them, but we do not say the nations cannot have their armies, we do not preach against warfare, we are merely claiming our exemption from it, that is all. Q. Back to the point now. A false prophesy was promulgated? A. I agree that. Q. It had to be accepted by Jehovah's Witnesses? A. That is correct. Q. If a member of Jehovah's Witnesses took the view himself that that prophesy was wrong and said so he would be disfellowshipped? A. Yes, if he said so and kept persisting in creating trouble, because if the whole organisation believes one thing, even though it be erronious and somebody else starts on his own trying to put his ideas across then there is disunity and trouble, there cannot be harmony, there cannot be marching. When a change comes it should come from the proper source, the head of the organisation, the governing body, not from the bottom upwards, because everybody would have ideas, and the organisation would disintegrate and go in a thousand different directions. Our purpose is to have unity. Q. Unity at all costs? A. Unity at all costs, because we believe and are sure that Jehovah God is using our organisation, the governing body of our organisation to direct it, even though mistakes are made from time to time. Q. And unity based upon an enforced acceptance of false prophecy? A. That is conceded to be true. Q. And the person who expressed his view, as you say, that it was wrong, and was disfellowshipped, would be in breach of the Covenant, if he was baptized? A. That is correct. Q. And as you said yesterday expressly, would be worthy of death? A. I think - - - Q. Would you say yes or no? A. I will answer yes, unhesitatingly. Q. Do you call that religion? A. It certainly is. Q. Do you call it Christianity? A. I certainly do. Fred Franz, then vice-president of the Society, also answered questions for the attorney for the Ministry of Labour and National Service. Q. In addition to these regular publications do you prepare and issue a number of theological pamphlets and books from time to time? A. Yes. Q. Can you tell me this; are these theological publications and the semi-monthly periodicals used for discussion of statements of doctrine? A. Yes. Q. Are these statements of doctrine held to be authoritative within the Society? A. Yes. Q. Is their acceptance a matter of choice, or is it obligatory on all those who wish to be and remain members of the Society? A. It is obligatory. The British government counsellor later directed attention to certain teachings that the Society had in time rejected, including some involving specific dates. What, he asked, if someone, at the time when such teaching was promulgated, had seen the error in it and had therefore not accepted it? What would the organization's attitude toward such one be? The testimony explains: Q. Did [Pastor Russell] not fix 1874 as some other crucial date? A. 1874 used to be understood as the date of Jesus' Second Coming spiritually. Q. Do you say, used to be understood? A. That is right. Q. That was issued as a fact which was to be accepted by all who were Jehovah's Witnesses? A. Yes. Q. That is no longer now accepted, is it? A. No. Q. But it was a calculation which is no longer accepted by the Board of Directors of the Society? A. That is correct. Q. So that am I correct, I am just anxious to canvas the position; it became the bounden duty of the Witnesses to accept this miscalculation? A. Yes. Q. So that what is published as the truth today by the Society may have to be admitted to be wrong in a few years? A. We have to wait and see. Q. And in the meantime the body of Jehovah's Witnesses have been following error? A. They have been following misconstructions on the Scriptures. Q. Error? A. Well, error. Again the question as to how great the authority attributed to the Society's publications is came in for discussion. While at one point the vice president says that "one does not compulsorily accept," his testimony thereafter reverts back to the earlier position, as can be seen: A. These [Watchtower Society] books give an exposition on the whole Scriptures. Q. But an authoritative exposition? A. They submit the Bible or the statements that are therein made, and the individual examines the statement and then the Scripture to see that the statement is Scripturally supported. Q. He what? A. He examines the Scripture to see whether the statement is supported by the Scripture. As the Apostle says: "Prove all things; hold fast that which is good". Q. I understood the position to be - do please correct me if I am wrong - that a member of the Jehovah's Witnesses must accept as a true Scripture and interpretation what is given in the books I referred you to? A. But he does not compulsorily do so, he is given his Christian right of examining the Scriptures to confirm that this is Scripturally sustained. Q. And if he finds that the Scripture is not sustained by the books, or vice versa, what does he do? A. The Scripture is there in support of the statement, that is why it is put there. Q. What does a man do if he finds a disharmony between the Scripture and those books? A. You will have to produce me a man who does find that, then I can answer, or he will answer. Note Franz's waffling. He is unwilling, even under oath, to admit that present understanding can be in error, even though he just finished testifying that what is published as truth today may be error in a few years. Q. Did you imply that the individual member has the right of reading the books and the Bible and forming his own view as to the proper interpretation of Holy Writ? A. He comes - - - Q. Would you say yes or no, and then qualify? A. No. Do you want me to qualify now? Q. Yes, if you wish? A. The Scripture is there given in support of the statement, and therefore the individual when he looks up the Scripture and thereby verifies the statement, then he comes to the Scriptural view of the matter, Scriptural understanding as it is written in Acts, the seventeenth chapter and the eleventh verse, that the Bereans were more noble than those of Thessalonica in that they received the Word with all readiness, and they searched the Scripture to see whether those things were so, and we instruct to follow that noble course of the Bereans in searching the Scripture to see whether these things were so. Q. A Witness has no alternative, has he, to accept as authoritative and to be obeyed instructions issued in the "Watchtower" or the "Informant" or "Awake"? A. He must accept those. To recap, Haydon C. Covington basically said that the Watchtower Society views unity as more important than even doctrinal truth, and that this desire for unity may even result in a forced acceptance of false prophecy. Fred Franz's testimony confirmed this, and further showed that, while the Society makes a show of encouraging people to examine its doctrines in light of the scriptures "to see whether these things are so" (Acts 17:10,11), it does not allow its members to freely act upon the results of that examination if the Society's claims are found wanting. Since the Society will never admit to members that it is wrong right now, it does not truly allow them to examine its doctrines to see "whether these things were so," but in practice requires them to examine the scriptures to confirm that these things are so, and to "readjust" their thinking if they are unable to do that. In other words, no matter what an individual finds, he is obligated to believe whatever the Society teaches at that moment. At least, he is obligated not to publicly or privately disagree with the Society, and so if he really cannot bring himself to accept some doctrine, he must pretend to accept it, and live a lie in order to remain in good standing. Since Psalm 51:6 says of Jehovah, "you have taken delight in truthfulness itself in the inward parts," and the Bible says that Jehovah is a God of truth, this attitude would appear inconsistent with his will. So, even though the Society states it is fallible and is not inspired, no member is allowed to act on this without serious consequences ranging from loss of congregational privileges to disfellowshipping. The Society wants every member to believe, as Covington testified, that any member who acts on the fact that Watchtower Society leaders are not infallible is worthy of death.

http://gwest59.tripod.com/ChristIsLord/id26.html

And if you are interested in downloading the whole Scottish Sessions court transcription, to check it out yourself, go to:

http://www.sendspace.com/file/q658zg and scroll down to the red flashing arrow.

bebu

Edited to add: Maybe it will also help to contrast the WTS's insistence that they are to be followed EVEN IF they are false prophets, with the Word of God which they claim to follow:

DT 18:17-22
Matt 7:15-20
Mark 13:21-23

The WTS admits to publishing false prophecy (and there have been many more besides the one referenced above). They contradict the Bible (even Jesus' own exhortations) by saying that false prophets (themselves, of course!) should be followed. This is the heart of their religion: follow us, above everything else (even God).

The JW theological issues with which you may agree with, you can find in other places/churches without the controlling cult dimension. Resolve the WTS = God's Sole Channel thing first... and then take the other things later. You'll save yourself a ton of time.

25

Had The Big Chat with my wife...

by besty in

jw
friends

after being a long time fader and lurking here for a few years i finally had the courage to speak to my wife the other day

she was complaining about how we never get invited back to other jw's houses despite being fairly hospitable ourselves and how she's made some new worldly friends that werre non-judgemental and just nice people.

she also mentioned her mum (also jw but weak - split up from her jw husband) was struggling with the routine and had lots of nice friends out of the kh.

bebu

Great news!!

I also highly recommend www.reexamine.org/quotes, because it is simply organized excerpts from the WT. Your wife will be able to confirm to herself easily that she has left a cultish and controlling group, that doesn't know which end is up.

bebu

19

Count-Down 9: The Meaning of Life

by Amazing in

jw
friends

i can recall a number of jw articles talking about the meaning of life - of course that meant doing something the watchtower said would make you happy, like selling magazines door to door .

i love what my oldest son once said: "i don't look for the meaning of life ... rather ... i create my own meaning.

" that is my son.

bebu

Nice thread!

A great quote from John Piper, a Christian hedonist. I agree with it! In essence, the doctrine

The chief end of man is to glorify God AND enjoy him forever

is better expressed as

The chief end of man is to glorify God BY enjoying him forever.

http://www.desiringgod.org/dg/id87.htm

bebu

18

Good Friday....

by AK - Jeff in

jw
friends

bebu

Just returned from a Good Friday Tenebrae ("Shadows") service. Candles were extinguished at intervals as the passion of Christ (in Matthew) was read, and then pauses for meditation. All left in complete silence.

The Ragman by Walter Wangerin, Jr.

I saw a strange sight. I stumbled upon a story most strange, like nothing my life, my street sense, my sly tongue had ever prepared me for.

Hush, child. Hush, now, and I will tell it to you.

Even before the dawn one Friday morning I noticed a young man, handsome and strong, walking the alleys of our City. He was pulling an old cart filled with clothes both bright and new, and he was calling in a clear, tenor voice: "Rags!" (Ah, the air was foul and the first light filthy to be crossed by such sweet music.)

"Rags! New rags for old! I take your tired rags! Rags!" "Now, this is a wonder," I thought to myself, for the man stood six-feet-four, and his arms were like tree limbs, hard and muscular, and his eyes flashed intelligence. Could he find no better job than this, to be a ragman in the inner city? I followed him. My curiosity drove me. And I wasn't disappointed.

Soon the Ragman saw a woman sitting on her back porch. She was sobbing into a handkerchief, sighing, and shedding a thousand tears. Her knees and elbows made a sad X. Her shoulders shook. Her heart was breaking.

The Ragman stopped his cart. Quietly, he walked to the woman, stepping round tin cans, dead toys, and Pampers. "Give me your rag," he said so gently, "and I'll give you another." He slipped the handkerchief from her eyes. She looked up, and he laid across her palm a linen cloth so clean and new that it shined. She blinked from the gift to the giver.

Then, as he began to pull his cart again, the Ragman did a strange thing: he put her stained handkerchief to his own face; and then HE began to weep, to sob as grievously as she had done, his shoulders shaking. Yet she was left without a tear.

"This IS a wonder," I breathed to myself , and I followed the sobbing Ragman like a child who cannot turn away from mystery.

"Rags! Rags! New rags for old!"

In a little while, when the sky showed grey behind the rooftops and I could see the shredded curtains hanging out black windows, the Ragman came upon a girl whose head

was wrapped in a bandage, whose eyes were empty. Blood soaked her bandage. A single line of blood ran down her cheek. Now the tall Ragman looked upon this child with pity, and he drew a lovely yellow bonnet from his cart.

"Give me your rag," he said, tracing his own line on her cheek, "and I'll give you mine." The child could only gaze at him while he loosened the bandage, removed it, and tied it to his own head. The bonnet he set on hers. And I gasped at what I saw: for with the bandage went the wound! Against his brow it ran a darker, more substantial blood - his own!

"Rags! Rags! I take old rags!" cried the sobbing, bleeding, strong, intelligent Ragman.

The sun hurt both the sky, now, and my eyes; the Ragman seemed more and more to hurry.

"Are you going to work?" he asked a man who leaned against a telephone pole. The man shook his head. The Ragman pressed him: "Do you have a job?"

"Are you crazy?" sneered the other. He pulled away from the pole, revealing the right sleeve of his jacket - flat, the cuff stuffed into the pocket. He had no arm.

"So," said the Ragman. "Give me your jacket, and I'll give you mine." Such quiet authority in his voice!

The one-armed man took off his jacket. So did the Ragman - and I trembled at what I saw: for the Ragman's arm stayed in its sleeve, and when the other put it on he had two good arms, thick as tree limbs; but the Ragman had only one. "Go to work," he said.

After that he found a drunk, lying unconscious beneath an army blanket, and old man, hunched, wizened, and sick. He took that blanket and wrapped it round himself, but for the drunk he left new clothes.

And now I had to run to keep up with the Ragman. Though he was weeping uncontrollably, and bleeding freely at the forehead, pulling his cart with one arm, stumbling for drunkenness, falling again and again, exhausted, old, and sick, yet he went with terrible speed. On spider's legs he skittered through the alleys of the City, this mile and the next, until he came to its limits, and then he rushed beyond.

I wept to see the change in this man. I hurt to see his sorrow. And yet I needed to see where he was going in such haste, perhaps to know what drove him so.

The little old Ragman - he came to a landfill. He came to the garbage pits. And then I wanted to help him in what he did, but I hung back, hiding.

He climbed a hill. With tormented labor he cleared a little space on that hill. Then he sighed. He lay down. He pillowed his head on a handkerchief and a jacket. He covered his bones with an army blanket. And he died.

Oh, how I cried to witness that death!I slumped in a junked car and wailed and mourned as one who has no hope - because I had come to love the Ragman. Every other face had faded in the wonder of this man, and I cherished him; but he died. I sobbed myself to sleep.

I did not know - how could I know? That I slept through Friday night and Saturday and its night, too.

But then, on Sunday morning, I was wakened by a violence. Light - pure, hard, demanding light - slammed against my sour face,and I blinked, and I looked, and I saw the last and the first wonder of all. There was the Ragman, folding the blanket most carefully, a scar on his forehead, but alive! And, besides that, healthy! There was no sign of sorrow nor of age, and all the rags that he had gathered shined for cleanliness.

Well, then I lowered my head and trembling for all that I had seen, I myself walked up to the Ragman. I told him my name with shame, for I was a sorry figure next to him.

Then I took off all my clothes in that place, and I said to him with dear yearning in my voice: "Dress me."

He dressed me. My Lord, he put new rags on me, and I am a wonder beside him.

The Ragman, the Ragman, THE CHRIST

Ragman by Walter Wangerin, Jr. from "Ragman and Other Cries of Faith"

bebu

15

I need some help... researchers.

by RichieRich in

jw
friends

so i met a buddy for coffee tonight, and this particular buddy happens to still be a witness.. we got to talking about what it was that made me leave, and i told him about the un ngo scandal, and also the randcam scandal.. he'd like to see the information on both, and i told him i could have it for him in no time, what with the resources i have (you guys are awesome).. could someone do me a huge favor, and post the link to .

1. the .pdf document that is the letter from the un about the wtbts being a member.. 2. the proof that the wtbts owns stock in randcam.

3. anybody remember the thing that shows that the wtbts was in the top 40 businesses in nyc.

bebu

marsal, thanks for those quotes. I'm familiar with the very old one by Russell:

The plan of reading twelve pages of the STUDIES IN THE SCRIPTURES each day, tried by so many, results in more Bible study than any other way we know of....

Furthermore, not only do we find that people can not see the divine plan in studying the Bible by itself, but we see, also, that if anyone lays the SCRIPTURES STUDIES aside, even after he has used them, after he has become familiar with them, after he has read them for ten years&endash;if he then lays them aside and ignores them and goes to the Bible alone, though he has understood his Bible for ten years, our experience shows that within two years he goes into darkness. On the other hand, if he had merely read the SCRIPTURE STUDIES with their references, and had not read a page of the Bible, as such, he would be in the light at the end of the two years, because he would have the light of the Scriptures....

--Watch Tower Reprints, p. 4684-4686. The Watch Tower Reprints are reprints of the Watch Tower magazine (in small type in seven volumes) from 1879 to 1919. These were published by the Watchtower Society in 1920.

pallemar, love your avatar!

bebu

25

Bow down to your newest ...

by What-A-Coincidence in

jw
friends

emperor!!!

yes!!!

i finaly made it!!!

bebu

I would bow down if I were not already an emperor myself.

Welcome though, to our elite little world!

bebu

20

Parents of Teens--I need encouragement

by love2Bworldly in

jw
friends

i am really feeling down today, can't stop crying.

i just need some words of encouragement from other parents that i will survive my kids' teen years.

my 13 year old is trying to discover/find herself, has emotional issues--since birth, cuts/burns herself secretly--she is on prozac, in regular counseling, spent time last year in a physchiatric hospital, and just generally always has stomach aches or conflicts with other peers and is flunking math as usual as well as getting bad grades in citizenship lately.. my 17 year old son is on probation for being in a fight last fall, and does illegal stuff for cash.

bebu

There is a wonderful book by Barbara Johnson called, "Fresh Elastic for Stretched Out Moms". She is a Christian humorist who has survived severe tragedies in her life with her teens. One comment she passes on is, "God didn't promise that we'd be leading at the half; only that we'd win the game." Most of our kids haven't even reached the half yet. Remember that!

One of my sisters passed this on to me. Her friend wrote it, and my sister thought I could use it! I read it quite a bit.

"Jack" is my son.

I can admit that he is a good kid, and at heart he has good intentions toward others and me.
He is nutty sometimes, and even very annoying sometimes too, but he is okay.
He gets me mad because he doesn’t seem to change, or even want to change, but I can control my anger.
If he acts in ways that bother me, I can be civil, not abusive. I do not need to manipulate him with guilt.
I don’t need to hit him, tap him, or touch him. Or otherwise convey that I despise him.
I can be patient with him, not a tyrant or a bully.
If I am patient with him, he will eventually respond positively.
There will be a lot less anger and tension in me and in this home if I can be patient.

...And it doesn’t actually matter what other people think.
If they can’t handle that he is my son, then they will have a problem, not me. My son's welfare is more important than my friends' opinions.
I don’t have to prove anything, by putting down my son, to someone who is truly my friend.
A real friend would not expect me to despise my own son.
A real friend would encourage me to be patient.

So I will stop pouring acid on the relationship with the only oldest son I have.
I will try to say something encouraging to him at least once a day. It is an easy goal for a mother who loves her son.

I can do these things because I want to bring more kindness into the world, not hate or cynicism.
The world has far too much hatred in it already. This is one area I can do something about.
Even if I have trouble getting going on this and keep messing up, I am committed to this as my goal.

In fact, I realize that it is God who is asking me to love my son better, whether or not he responds.
God knows it can be hard, because many of His children don't respond to Him either. He is not judging me for their freewill.

With God’s help, with His strength, and with His direction, I can love much better than I have done before. To love others as God wants me to is greater than all my goals or dreams. It is my only real responsibility.

1 Cor 13

bebu

18

Just A Hello and Update From Lovelylil

by lovelylil in

jw
friends

boy do i miss you guys.

i wanted to let you know what is going on with me these days.. as most of you know, i have been having some marital/family problems.

things are still going slow but better i think.

bebu

That's a pretty interesting update. For only a couple of months, you've been amazingly busy!!!!

Congratulations for all the great things that are happening in your life. I wish you many more successes and joys in every challenging area as well.

bebu