Posts by latinthunder

327

How do believers defend a god who is going to murder billions and pin it on them?

by tootired2care in

at that time those slain by the lord will be everywherefrom one end of the earth to the other.

they will not be mourned or gathered up or buried, but will be like dung lying on the ground.

- jerimiah 25:33.

latinthunder

Don't you care at least a little BIT about reality, i.e. what is really REAL? I prefer living MY life based on reality, not just a wishful comforting fantasy that only makes ME feel good. Didn't you learn the lesson of the dangers of chasing after a fantasy while in the JWs?

Since my brain is capable of creating my own reality I set a higher priority on manifesting it myself rather than trying to figure out what it is. God is a not a fantasy, that's just the reality you create for yourself. I personally want nothing to do with it, but you are free to have it.

Now you're arguing from an ends-based (teleological) justication, saying "Don't challenge my God belief with facts, and maybe it's possible that it IS a fantasy, but just let me enjoy my fantasy/delusion in peace, because I ENJOY it so...." REALLY? Again: don't you CARE one bit about reality?

You haven't challenged me with THE facts, you have challenged me with YOUR facts. Simply put there is no objective reality. What is a fact to you is not necessarily a fact to me. Your fact gathering process has the nasty habbit of missing a lot of them. I must admit, however, that my process is just as flawed.

My fact is that God exists.

Your fact is that God doesn't exist.

Both parties can now argue from a foundation of "reality" even though both perspectives are diametrically opposed. Two particles can exist in two places at once.

The problem is believers aren't content to keep their beliefs to themselves, but engage in recruiting others (knocking on doors, etc), forming political organizations/action groups, trying to force their beliefs down MY throat, controlling school curricula for creation science, voting for God-fearing candidates, etc.

You should not return evil for evil, which is exactly what you are doing. You are very correct that it's wrong to force one's reality upon another, because human reality is subjective. Insisting upon others ANY human reality as wholly objective is nothing short of oppression.

There is a difference between our approaches. I can plainly tell you that my reality is MY reality, not yours. You, on the other hand, will claim that your reality is supported by "the facts" and "the evidence." The truth is you can't have reality without facts and evidence. So, everybody's reality is made up of facts and evidences. Yours is no different than mine. In your reality I am just a crazy person who cannot let go of their fears. At best you will pity me. In my reality that's OK, you are free to see the world in the way that you see the world. I see it differently.

Yeah, and that's an "appeal to tradition" argument. Take a logic course at your local community college, and learn it's potential flaws.

I didn't appeal to any tradtion, I pointed to my collegues in history. Remember Religion is a scientific experiment that has been going on for a very, VERY long time now. I am part of a peer review process that you don't believe exists. You want to package up all their data into the term "tradition" and then toss it over a dam. You don't want to believe that Religion has anything to teach us. That's fine, that's YOUR reality. I see it differently.

You are claiming that ancient laws are BETTER than NEW laws.

Absolutely I am. Ancient laws were an artform and based on what was observed. The Torah was designed to create a flourishing peaceful nation that existed among diametrically opposed forces. What if you opened up your constitution and it started with a fable, which taught a bunch of timeless moral lessons? I, for one, LIKE that idea of combining art with law. It's amazing and better than anything we have today. I wish MORE people in government thought like the writers of the Torah, I really do.

Wake up and realize the World has moved beyond Bible-based morality CENTURIES AGO, and the sky didn't fall in.

I guess you haven't been watching the news? I think it's you who need to wake up.

You're holding onto an ancient book that still advocates slavery, thought control, etc, and it's time to admit while it has some good in it, it's NOT God-given or inspired, but merely the product of ancient clever men where it served a purpose in THEIR time, but modern concepts of granting fundamental human rights to all have moved well-beyond it.

So you are throwing the Law of Moses away? That's what happened in the Hebrew Scriptures and King Josiah had to reestablish the law, then he was assassinated by an Egyptian Pharaoh. To the Torah, and the powers behind it, you are just playing a very old game.

327

How do believers defend a god who is going to murder billions and pin it on them?

by tootired2care in

at that time those slain by the lord will be everywherefrom one end of the earth to the other.

they will not be mourned or gathered up or buried, but will be like dung lying on the ground.

- jerimiah 25:33.

latinthunder

TT2C, adamah and Cofty, couldn't it be said that your presentation in this thread exhibits a prosecutorial zeal? If this is true, would such zeal not lead believers to the inevitable conclusion that you act on behalf of The Prosecutor? Whom, from their perspective, is a very real thing? Are you not, in way, baiting this reaction simply by exhibiting this prosecutorial zeal? If they truly are captive to their own imaginations, what else are you leaving them to do? It's as if the God of the Religion is on trial, with you as judge jury and executioner, and the verdict is that God was never there to be on trial in the first place. You argument paradoxical.

God exists in our Scripture because God is an observed truth. We now have the task of defining God, not the task of determining His existence. If you are not interested in that endeavor, then that's an indicator that free will truly exists. You may turn away, if you wish.

For me, when the Bible became allegory a huge burden I didn't know I had lifted. The document no longer held any power over me, but quite the opposite, I had power over it. As I put the peices together (which is a process that lasts a lifetime) I discovered the document's true purpose: To instruct me in the ways of righteousness. It lifted me up in a time of darkness and gave me strength to carry on. That's because Scripture has a voice and that voice leads you to what is right, what is true and especially, what is faithful. It's been doing this for ages and ages.

If you must reduce Scripture to a simple fairy tale at least maintain the moral alignments of the original characters. Otherwise, you have to say you are starting a new story. Calling the God of the Torah evil is like calling Batman evil, you could make a case, but it's just not right.

327

How do believers defend a god who is going to murder billions and pin it on them?

by tootired2care in

at that time those slain by the lord will be everywherefrom one end of the earth to the other.

they will not be mourned or gathered up or buried, but will be like dung lying on the ground.

- jerimiah 25:33.

latinthunder

327

How do believers defend a god who is going to murder billions and pin it on them?

by tootired2care in

at that time those slain by the lord will be everywherefrom one end of the earth to the other.

they will not be mourned or gathered up or buried, but will be like dung lying on the ground.

- jerimiah 25:33.

latinthunder

Cofty, you're wrongly assuming that because I believe in the Christian deity (the triune God) that I am a Christian. I also believe in the Jewish deity, does that make me Jewish? I also believe in Hinduism, Islam, Buddhism, Confucianism, Taoism and Mormonism. I am a Universalist, if you must label me. From where I stand all systems of religion are true until proven otherwise.

So then when genesis speaks of the order of creating the earth and then Adam from its dust what is it REALLY saying?

It's saying that everything in existence comes by way of cycles which are depicted as "days of creation" or "ages." Age 1 is a prequisite for Age 2 and and so forth. Humanity, represented by Adam, came to be as a final product which uses all the previous ages.

327

How do believers defend a god who is going to murder billions and pin it on them?

by tootired2care in

at that time those slain by the lord will be everywherefrom one end of the earth to the other.

they will not be mourned or gathered up or buried, but will be like dung lying on the ground.

- jerimiah 25:33.

latinthunder

Can you give us ONE (and only ONE) example of how you have personally put this advice into play in your own life, i.e. cite specific passage(s) of the Talmud (which of course contains discussions amongst rabbis, discussing the Torah scriptures, amplifying on them) which you're found to be personally beneficial, and in your own words, "extremely effective for the training of righteousness".

The first verse of the Torah is extremely beneficial because it teaches faith in God and his powers of creation. Without faith that God created everything, the proceeding verses and chapters will make absolutely no sense whatsoever. Once you have your faith, everything else falls into place. It's simply remarkable. You must have the Spirit to understand the things of the Spirit, and without faith the Spirit is not with you.

That's a LOT of eisegesis, even for a Christian, no?

Please stop calling me a Christian when I have stated otherwise.

And as TOOTIRED2CARE pointed out, what happened to your claim of the Garden of Eden being symbolic/allegorical/spiritual, etc? You seem to want to have it both ways, huh?

See my response.

Remember, what I asked was, when/where in the Bible (i.e. what scriptural passage) did God give to mortal HUMANS the "no-bloodshed" law?

In the story, humanity understood why the existed in a state of death, because their parents fell from grace. The characters know their own backstory. You seem to be trying to argue that no one knew of the law against death which is not true. The whole reason they existed in a state of suffering was because the law of life was broken. To kill again would just be adding insult to injury.

What "plane" is this exactly? Are you suggesting that the beginning of mankind was non corporeal?

I am saying that the Torah is making that claim, yes. Earth and heaven in the beginning were not separate, but linked. Once the inhabitants of earth sinned, earth separated from heaven along with them (and the spirit creatures who were party to it). Which means the whole purpose of humanity is to defeat the evil spirits who took us captive and to travel back to our original home. "A new heavens and a new earth" which are linked like they were in the beginning.

327

How do believers defend a god who is going to murder billions and pin it on them?

by tootired2care in

at that time those slain by the lord will be everywherefrom one end of the earth to the other.

they will not be mourned or gathered up or buried, but will be like dung lying on the ground.

- jerimiah 25:33.

latinthunder

Latin thunder - do you realize you just contradicted yourself?

TT2C, have you ever noticed that the further you get into the Torah the less abstract imagery is used? This is because in the beginning there is no separation between heaven and earth, that's why spirit creatures dwell in the same "space" as earthly. Only after the Fall does the serpent become the common snake we know today, existing on it's belly. Only after the Fall does man and woman become what we know them to be today. The Torah is telling us that the beginning of mankind existed on a plane that is well beyond our current comprehension. To describe it at all requires devling into very deep imagery and storytelling. So, when someone asks, "when did Jehovah first prohibit murder" the answer is in that spiritual plane, before the existence of what we know as reality. Which is depicted by a Tree of Knowledge of Good and Bad.

327

How do believers defend a god who is going to murder billions and pin it on them?

by tootired2care in

at that time those slain by the lord will be everywherefrom one end of the earth to the other.

they will not be mourned or gathered up or buried, but will be like dung lying on the ground.

- jerimiah 25:33.

latinthunder

Really? Gutsy move (which you've claimed before), but how do you square that claim of reliance on the Jewish Talmud with your professed belief in Jesus, who constantly deprecated those serpent-like Pharisees for their reliance on man-made rules?

Reliance on the Jewish Talmud? What do you mean by that? I simply claimed that the Torah and the Talmud, when used together, are extremely effective for the training of righteousness. The Sanhedrin was a corrupt organization that didn't follow their own laws and they were in bed with the Romans. Jesus exposed them, not their law.

You DO understand that the Talmud wasn't even assembled in written form until a few hundred years AFTER Jesus died, and contained a written record of extra-Torahic interpretations which were the SAME rabbinical man-made laws added to amplify upon the written Law of Moses, a practice Jesus vehemently protested against?

" By their fruit you will recognize them. "

Per the Bible, WHEN did Jehovah FIRST prohibit the spilling of the blood of another human being?

The law not to eat of the Tree of Knowlege was a law against suicide, or the spilling of human blood.

327

How do believers defend a god who is going to murder billions and pin it on them?

by tootired2care in

at that time those slain by the lord will be everywherefrom one end of the earth to the other.

they will not be mourned or gathered up or buried, but will be like dung lying on the ground.

- jerimiah 25:33.

latinthunder

There are plenty of things written a long long long time ago that are still useful today. That doesn't mean it originated from a deity.

Well, let me rephrase. Scripture is defined by it's usefulness for training in righteousness (keyword). It's supposed to aid us in our understanding of right and wrong. For example, lots of self help books have been published, but not all of them stand the test of time. What people believed was the "right" thing to do at one point in time may not be what they believe in the future. If a self help book never stops being useful then it was written by someone who was in tune with the Spirit (God) and should be considered the gospel truth.

327

How do believers defend a god who is going to murder billions and pin it on them?

by tootired2care in

at that time those slain by the lord will be everywherefrom one end of the earth to the other.

they will not be mourned or gathered up or buried, but will be like dung lying on the ground.

- jerimiah 25:33.

latinthunder

I wasn't referring to THIS debate, but to YOUR claim that there were OTHER "intense debates" amongst believers over whether the animals in Genesis were 'spiritual animals' vs 'physical animals' (a silly argument, quite analogous to the "intense debates" over dancing angels from the Middle Ages).

Because the Garden of Eden is a fable all imagery therein is subject to interpretation. The nature of the creatures of the story will determine how they are interpreted. Are SOME of the animals in the Garden of Eden spirit creatures? That is what Christian Scripture claims. It's not a silly argument, that's just how you are perceiving it. " The person without the Spirit does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God but considers them foolishness, and cannot understand them because they are discerned only through the Spirit. "

So tell me, which parts of the Bible aren't inspired?

All 66 books are God-breathed.

Something that was useful generations ago could have been said to be inspired but now because it is no longer useful, it isn't inspired?

The Torah and the Talmud still hold lasting value even for people today. They have stood the test of time and should rightly be considered God-breathed. You can confirm this yourself if you choose to put in the work.

327

How do believers defend a god who is going to murder billions and pin it on them?

by tootired2care in

at that time those slain by the lord will be everywherefrom one end of the earth to the other.

they will not be mourned or gathered up or buried, but will be like dung lying on the ground.

- jerimiah 25:33.

latinthunder

Don't you see how you are using the same definition of inspiration that JW's use?

I most certainly am not. My definition is inclusionary, not exclusionary. The Watchtower, and all fundamentalists, spends a considerable amount of time and resources to discredit the scripture of neighboring cultures. All religions have their doctrinal texts which always includes a hefty dose of mythology. Paul's claim was that divine scripture is defined by it's timeless usability, which is a very practicle approach. He was a Jew, after all.

So the scriptures that talk about god sending bears to kill a bunch of kids was inspired by god back then but it isn't inspired by god anymore just because it doesn't apply to this generation? That account was a teaching tool back then not to disrespect god's prophets.

When did I claim 2 Kings was inspired "back then", but isn't today? The way you determine whether or not 2 Kings is "God-breathed" is by applying it's spiritual principles in your life and see where they take you (or by observing others who are doing just that "look at their fruits"). I personally wouldn't use 1st and 2nd Kings as a standalone document. It should be used in conjunction with the Torah and the Talmud. Firstly, you have to identify the principles of the text, which takes study and deliberation, then apply them and compare your results with others (ie science). Scripture, and it's life applications, is a skill that requires practice, always has been. Better get to studying!