willmarite

Joined

• started 3 topics
• posted 67 times   see topics posted on
• send a message

Posts by willmarite

• 
  69

  Calling all materialists and non-materialists

  by willmarite in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  read this comment by bertrand russell:.

  that man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought or feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system; and the whole temple of mans achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy that rejects them can hope to stand.

  only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the souls habitation henceforth be safely built.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  willmarite

  jgnat - I agree with you about the illusion of free will. It rebels against intuition.
• 
  69

  Calling all materialists and non-materialists

  by willmarite in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  read this comment by bertrand russell:.

  that man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought or feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system; and the whole temple of mans achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy that rejects them can hope to stand.

  only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the souls habitation henceforth be safely built.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  willmarite

  Sorry bohm if you thought I was ignoring you. Many who believe in materialism still can find it hard to accept. Read Terry's post from the first page. Let me illustrate it this way. When I was a JW all the work that I did (service, talks, cleaning bathrooms etc.) I believed had lasting merit. I was happy doing it because I thought it had real value. When I found out it didn't have real value that it was without merit I was devasted. All my work was for nothing.

  If what bertrand russell said is correct as quoted in my opening comment then my personal view is that everything would be without merit in the final scheme of things. I'm sure you can understand this even if you don't agree with it.
• 
  69

  Calling all materialists and non-materialists

  by willmarite in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  read this comment by bertrand russell:.

  that man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought or feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system; and the whole temple of mans achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy that rejects them can hope to stand.

  only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the souls habitation henceforth be safely built.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  willmarite

  Hi Adam. I don't think you've thought thru completely the implications of your belief in materialism or physicalism. Many have done so such as Sam Harris who has written the book "The Illusion of Free Will". You can read a short article on his book here:

  http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/the-illusion-of-free-will

  Stephen Hawking has thought thru the question as a materialist or physicalist and writes in his book The Grand Design:

  "Though we feel that we can choose what we do, our understanding of the molecular basis of biology shows that biological processes are governed by the laws of physics and chemistry and therefore are as determined as the orbits of the planets. Recent experiments in neuroscience support the view that it is our physical brain, following the known laws of science, that determines our actions, and not some agency that exists outside those laws. For example, a study of patients undergoing awake brain surgery found that by electrically stimulating the appropriate regions of the brain, one could create in the patient the desire to move the hand, arm, or foot, or to move the lips and talk. It is hard to imagine how free will can operate if our behavior is determined by physical law, so it seems that we are no more than biological machines and that free will is just an illusion."

  Sam Harris says that there is no intellectually respectable position to deny that free will is an illusion. If you disagree that belief in materialism or physicalism doesn't logically lead to the belief that free will is an illusion you will have to explain your position better.
• 
  69

  Calling all materialists and non-materialists

  by willmarite in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  read this comment by bertrand russell:.

  that man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought or feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system; and the whole temple of mans achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy that rejects them can hope to stand.

  only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the souls habitation henceforth be safely built.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  willmarite

  Hi adam,

  Yeah, that prove you're projecting YOUR fears onto others.

  That would be possible but these are only theoretical fears of mine that do not exist.

  I'm a materialist, and don't see life as pointless: just the opposite, since it's a gift and the challenge is what you make of it. Not to collapse in a ball of self-doubt to quiver and die.

  Thanks, I appreciate your opinion.

  You really should be asking yourself of where you ever got the idea of spiritual woo, in the first place, as your default position? Because aside from cultural influences, there's absolutely no evidence for it.

  This would be your opinion. Thanks

  Materialist' is not synonymous with 'nihilist'. Don't insult me like that!

  'Free will' implies there's not someone (usually, some God(s)) pulling the levers. The only one yanking our chains is often US OURSELVES, and most people cannot handle the responsibility of accepting that fact, since it means they cannot deny their personal responsibility any longer.

  Sorry, no intention to insult. I certainly agree with you that we and we alone have ultimate responsability to what happens to us and our planet. How does your version of materialism reconcile itself with free will?
• 
  69

  Calling all materialists and non-materialists

  by willmarite in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  read this comment by bertrand russell:.

  that man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought or feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system; and the whole temple of mans achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy that rejects them can hope to stand.

  only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the souls habitation henceforth be safely built.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  willmarite

  Sorry bohm for not answering. I'm not sure I understand the reason behind the question but I'll give it a try.

  Something that matters to me is the future of mankind including myself. If I suddenly began to believe that my life, the life of all my loved ones, and the life and every person who has ever lived is entirely pointless I would be devastated.

  Let me compare it to the difference between a rewarding job where you used your abilities to help other people and a job where for 8 hrs. a day you dug a hole in the ground then proceeded to fill it back up again. Then you re-dug the hole then filled it up again. Very few people could do such meaningless work for very long.

  If the materialist paradigm is correct then not only is everything ultimately meaningless but you don't even have a choice whether to believe it or not.
• 
  69

  Calling all materialists and non-materialists

  by willmarite in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  read this comment by bertrand russell:.

  that man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought or feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system; and the whole temple of mans achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy that rejects them can hope to stand.

  only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the souls habitation henceforth be safely built.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  willmarite

  Terry - Thanks, very touching.

  bohm - The fact that our bodies are made up of atoms has nothing to do with it. I do not think anyone would dispute this fact. The belief that consciousness and everything that we are is just due to chance interactions of blind physical forces is what I am talking about. The belief that my life and your's has no purpose or destiny is what I'm talking about. The belief that free will is an illusion so the only reason you love your girlfriend is because you had no choice in the matter (this isn't my belief by the way) is what I'm talking about.
• 
  69

  Calling all materialists and non-materialists

  by willmarite in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  read this comment by bertrand russell:.

  that man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought or feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system; and the whole temple of mans achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy that rejects them can hope to stand.

  only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the souls habitation henceforth be safely built.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  willmarite

  Thanks for the response bohm. My personal belief is that materialism is a limiting belief and is not true so it doesn't scare me. I will admit however if I suddenly accepted it I have no words to describe how depressed I would be. That ultimately nothing matters (at least that's how I view it) would be too much to take and remain a happy, well-adjusted human being.
• 
  69

  Calling all materialists and non-materialists

  by willmarite in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  read this comment by bertrand russell:.

  that man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought or feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system; and the whole temple of mans achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy that rejects them can hope to stand.

  only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the souls habitation henceforth be safely built.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  willmarite

  Thanks bohm, how did you feel after you accepted the above quote? Or if you don't, how would you feel?
• 
  69

  Calling all materialists and non-materialists

  by willmarite in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  read this comment by bertrand russell:.

  that man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought or feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system; and the whole temple of mans achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy that rejects them can hope to stand.

  only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the souls habitation henceforth be safely built.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  willmarite

  Hi jgnat, if the materialist paradigm is true and we are just "gigantic lumbering robots" and our brains are just genetically programmed computers, how could we even take solace in being a bright spark for even just a moment?
• 
  69

  Calling all materialists and non-materialists

  by willmarite in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  read this comment by bertrand russell:.

  that man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought or feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system; and the whole temple of mans achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy that rejects them can hope to stand.

  only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the souls habitation henceforth be safely built.. .

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  willmarite

  Read this comment by Bertrand Russell:

  “That man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought or feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system; and the whole temple of Man’s achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins— all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy that rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul’s habitation henceforth be safely built.”

  On this thread I’m not interested in debating whether this statement is true or not. Many on this forum would accept this statement as truth and I’d like to know how this statement has affected you since you accepted it.

  I imagine some coming from a toxic spiritual environment like we've experienced as JWs would feel a sense of relief of not having to measure up to some moral or spiritual standard.

  If you don’t believe this statement to be true, how would it change you if you suddenly accepted it as being true? How would you feel?