Calling all materialists and non-materialists

by willmarite 69 Replies latest watchtower beliefs

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  willmarite

  Read this comment by Bertrand Russell:

  “That man is the product of causes which had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and his beliefs, are but the outcome of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought or feeling, can preserve an individual life beyond the grave; that all the labours of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius, are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system; and the whole temple of Man’s achievement must inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins— all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy that rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul’s habitation henceforth be safely built.”

  On this thread I’m not interested in debating whether this statement is true or not. Many on this forum would accept this statement as truth and I’d like to know how this statement has affected you since you accepted it.

  I imagine some coming from a toxic spiritual environment like we've experienced as JWs would feel a sense of relief of not having to measure up to some moral or spiritual standard.

  If you don’t believe this statement to be true, how would it change you if you suddenly accepted it as being true? How would you feel?
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  jgnat

  Boy, your question itself is a gordian knot.

  The statement reminds me a great deal of Ecclesiastes. Solomon concludes that the best a man can do is be happy in his work. I can go along with that. I know all my achievement, at its best, will live on as a shadow of a memory in my progeny, and if I am very lucky, a few generations of readers. I also have no control over how my influence will be used - for good or for bad.

  So what's wrong with being a bright spark, for a moment of eternity?
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  willmarite

  Hi jgnat, if the materialist paradigm is true and we are just "gigantic lumbering robots" and our brains are just genetically programmed computers, how could we even take solace in being a bright spark for even just a moment?
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  jgnat

  I'm not saying I'm a materialist. Our minds are more than programming. From some of my reading, the mind has a basic set of instructions, certain sectors to build, and a general instruction to "go forth and multiply". How much it grows and the complexity by which it grows depends a great deal on how much it is stimulated, and what is given attention by each individual. In these parameters genius and creativity is allowed.
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  bohm

  Willmarite:

  Hi jgnat, if the materialist paradigm is true and we are just "gigantic lumbering robots" and our brains are just genetically programmed computers, how could we even take solace in being a bright spark for even just a moment?

  Here is the problem. I am obviously not just a "gigantic lumbering robot" and my brain is obviously not just a "genetically programmed computer": I am capable of feelings, emotions, etc. etc. Try to restate the sentence and add in "capeable of feelings, thinking, love, etc." somewhere; all of a sudden it is a whole lot less scarier.

  So what you are doing is begging the question, its like when a creationist say: "So according to darwin you are just an ape". Well in one sense thats true --we are biologically classified as apes just like we are also mammals-- but there is obviously also a lot of really important differences between humans and apes.
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  willmarite

  Thanks bohm, how did you feel after you accepted the above quote? Or if you don't, how would you feel?
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  bohm

  willmarite: Honestly, when I read it, I think about the mystery of how the laws of nature and the processes that happens in the brain give rise to my conscious experience; I think its one of the two biggest mystery in science.

  I suppose you are interested in my emotional response. Well, I just feel thats the way it is. Does it scare you? Nobody ever told me when i grew up that I had a soul, that I would live forever or my life would have an eternal goal, and honestly the thought I could seriously believe that never occured to me. I really believe these are fears that need to be put into us by religions before they can control us.

  If you ask about the materialistic aspect, how I think about "just being atoms". I cannot really tell why that should make me feel a particular way at all now that I try to think about it; It's like being asked how I feel now that I know I have a liver and a digestive system. If anything, i think its pretty cool to consider I am composed of small atoms that buzz around and hit each other all the time.
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  willmarite

  Thanks for the response bohm. My personal belief is that materialism is a limiting belief and is not true so it doesn't scare me. I will admit however if I suddenly accepted it I have no words to describe how depressed I would be. That ultimately nothing matters (at least that's how I view it) would be too much to take and remain a happy, well-adjusted human being.
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  Terry

  On this thread I’m not interested in debating whether this statement is true or not. Many on this forum would accept this statement as truth and I’d like to know how this statement has affected you since you accepted it.

  We value our own life, ourselves, our values and, by extension, all we love; it is understandable how it is too much to ask for any of us

  to soberly embrace any truth telling us there is no lasting merit to any of it.

  I opted to embed my DNA in 7 offspring. It is the best chance I have of semi-lasting self-expression. As long as someone remembers you fondly you never totaly become extinct.

  I partly wrote my book to leave behind a tracing of my struggle to be a person of integrity.

  I became an artist, a composer and a writer so that many tendrils extend beyond my own finite self. Beyond all that, I'm ready to go. I've no fear of death itself--I only fear the slow decrepitude.
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  bohm

  Will: can you give an example of something that matter to you and explain how your worldview allow it to matter?

  i can give an example from my pow: my girldfriend matter. why? I love her. I dont see a logical reason how the knowledge we are both made of atoms should affect that conclusion.