Great to hear the progress. I'm watching intently as I prepare to explore the Proclaimers book/FDS issue with my wife. I have already been through the whole 607 vs. 587 thing and ultimately, it's over most witnesses' heads. (I even graphically mapped out all the archeological, biblical, astronomical, etc. evidence on a 34" x 34" master timeline--PM me if you'd like a copy). The default position ends up being: "I may not quite understand all of it, but the FDS must know what they are talking about." But in any case it brings up question marks where there were none before. You sound like you're really in command of the situation and your research is really paying off. Great work!
Posts by M.J.
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5A Good Start
by bebu inlast week, for the first time in years, 2 jws came to my door:.
http://www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/79637/1.ashx.
today was their first return visit.. the "original" jw brought another partner today.
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What Made Things Finally "Click" With You To Know This Was Not The Truth?
by minimus infor me it was the realization that there was no "faithful & discreet slave", that all the prophecies "proving" that jehovah's witnesses are the only religion approved by god is bogus and the realization that this is a "cult" and there is no real normal sense of love and affection in the "truth".
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M.J.
Azaria: have her check out the April 1, 1972 Watchtower, p. 197:
They Shall Know that a Prophet Was Among Them
People today can view the creative works. They have at hand the Bible, but it is little read or understood. So, does Jehovah have a prophet to help them, to warn them of dangers and to declare things to come?
IDENTIFYING THE "PROPHET"
These questions can be answered in the affirmative. Who is this prophet? ... This "prophet" was not one man, but was a body of men and women. It was the small group of footstep followers of Jesus Christ, known at that time as International Bible Students. Today they are known as Jehovah's Christian witnesses.
You can read more at: http://quotes.watchtower.ca/prophet.htm
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Spirituality as affirmation of life & implications re JWs & the like
by Markfromcali inat the socal fest i was talking to 4jwy and her hubby, and he made a point about doing something well which got me to think about this.
there is such an emphasis on the new system and being no part of the world with the jws that you effectively have a denial of life, certainly life as it is now today.
even if you believe in the new system, it would be rather like not giving first-aid or cpr because the doctor is the one that will fix it.
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M.J.
Hmm. Well probably one example is the account of Jesus. He did not alienate himself from the world but made it his aim to relate to the world--so much so a JW would condemn him for it like the religious leaders of the day.
The thing is it's not about faking it right, if that's really going to happen it's just because it comes naturally for you and it 'rubs off' on people.
Ahh, the results of spirituality established and managed through a publishing corp.
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M.J.
I can't see how any chronology, much less totally wacky chronology is an indication of anything. I don't recall Jesus saying his true disciples would be identified by their chronology.
No, they have the truth because truth has been redefined to mean "present understanding". That's why they had the "truth" in 1919 so as to be appointed as the Faithful Discreet Slave, and they still have the "truth" today, even though the "truth" of 1919 hardly matches that of today.
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"Captives of a Concept" --book online
by bebu inon another thread, mj and garybuss recommended a rather new book to me, which, it turns out, is available online as a download as well as a paperback that can be shipped.
i think it is an excellent resource, and believe it could be recommended to many people, jw or ex jw, because it uses wt material and doctrines as its criteria for discerning if the wt really does have all the authority they claim.
(if you are a jw, do you know what proof you supposedly rely on that the wt is the faithful and discreet slave?
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M.J.
I definitely can't wait to hear how your Proclaimers "reverse study" goes...
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In Watchtower World---What Do You Think The Society Thinks of JWD???
by minimus indo you think they "know" us?
do you think the service department looks here to find out how to write the next watchtower??
?
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M.J.
Heard lots of talk this past 1 day convention against the internet. They specifically mentioned "chat rooms" as being a big danger. Wonder if this is what they meant.
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"Captives of a Concept" --book online
by bebu inon another thread, mj and garybuss recommended a rather new book to me, which, it turns out, is available online as a download as well as a paperback that can be shipped.
i think it is an excellent resource, and believe it could be recommended to many people, jw or ex jw, because it uses wt material and doctrines as its criteria for discerning if the wt really does have all the authority they claim.
(if you are a jw, do you know what proof you supposedly rely on that the wt is the faithful and discreet slave?
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M.J.
I think it's easy to get overwhelmed by all the tons of info out there on the WTS. One can spend years analyzing this doctrine or that instance of abuse. This book does a great job at focusing on the very heart of the matter: "Is the WTS God's organization?" Finding the answer to this question is surprisingly simple, and the author does a pretty nice job of answering this question based on the WTS's own criteria.
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After 4 years, I finally had JWs at my door today!
by bebu inyesterday i saw two women walking slowly around the end of our street, waiting on porches of empty homes.
i told my husband, "look, there are 2 jws.
we haven't had them come here for 4 years--ever since i mentioned that i had some serious questions (but had never enumerated any points at all).
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M.J.
Exerpt from "Captives of a Concept" regarding the point just made (pp. 25-27):
Today the Governing Body teaches that Charles Taze Russell (by himself alone) never was ?the faithful and discreet slave? of Matthew 24:45. But the
Proclaimers book points out that there was a critical period of time in the Society?s history when they taught that he was. On page 142 it explains that in 1881 Russell originally taught the he was not that ?slave? ? just as they teach today. But on page 143 it acknowledges the extremely important point that a few years later he changed his mind?
Over a decade [after 1881] Brother Russell?s wife publicly expressed the idea that Russell himself was the faithful and [discreet slave]. The view that she voiced concerning the identity of the ?faithful [and discreet slave]? came to be generally held by (Jehovah?s Witnesses) for some 30 years. Brother Russell did not reject their view?[After those 30 years] the understanding expressed by Brother Russell in 1881 [that he was not that ?slave?] was reaffirmed in The Watch Tower of February 15, 1927.
What this is saying is very important. It is saying that from about 1897 to February 1927 (30 years) the Society was teaching that Russell was ?the faithful and discreet slave? and therefore that the Society was not that slave . What this means is even more important?
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After 4 years, I finally had JWs at my door today!
by bebu inyesterday i saw two women walking slowly around the end of our street, waiting on porches of empty homes.
i told my husband, "look, there are 2 jws.
we haven't had them come here for 4 years--ever since i mentioned that i had some serious questions (but had never enumerated any points at all).
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M.J.
Also the book Captives of a Concept presents some pretty good ways of using the "Proclaimers" book to cast some very serious doubts about Jesus selecting the WTS as the "faithful slave" back in 1919. The fact that she mentioned that book gives you a great way of leading into that.
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I need some answers. Had talk with mother but feeling extremely frustrated
by azaria ina couple of weeks ago i posted: www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/78808/1278659/post.ashx#1278659 .
for those who don?t want to read the whole post i bolded the part that i would like answers to.
at the moment i?m feeling totally drained and upset.
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M.J.
Yes, I think there are pretty good points being made here. I read an ex-Mormon's explanation of why Mormons refuse to face up to plain facts. He called it the "investment paradigm" (http://www.exmormon.org/whylft26.htm an interesting read!) He explained that the church makes it difficult for people to leave because it would mean that everything they invested in it their whole life was essentially worthless. There are many uncanny parallels between the LDS and the WTS in this regard. With this in mind, I think that extreme loving care should be taken when dealing with your mom. Try and validate to her that much of her learnings and experiences with the WTS has been very positive and perhaps even that God will recognize and take account her lifelong willingness to please him. Yet could it be that while the WTS has been the source of much good in her life, that a total, rigid allegiance to this group of men is not truly necessary to please God? This could possibly lead into the question of whether or not the WTS has been appointed as God's "sole channel". I guess there probably isn't truly a way to "let her down easy", but I guess you ought to do your best if you figure on continuing.