Posts by M.J.

23

I need some answers. Had talk with mother but feeling extremely frustrated

by azaria in

jw
friends

a couple of weeks ago i posted: www.jehovahs-witness.com/6/78808/1278659/post.ashx#1278659 .

for those who don?t want to read the whole post i bolded the part that i would like answers to.

at the moment i?m feeling totally drained and upset.

M.J.

The 1919 argument is very well presented in the book, "Captives of a Concept"

I highly reccommend you read it. (I know, everyone is saying, "read this!" but for me, at least, it was the best analysis I have read on the underlying doctrinal basis for the WTS's very existence, and how it can be easily debunked--a real eye opener, even to someone who has done plenty of research on the WTS)

Also, the author presents his experience with a fellow elder who said essentially the same thing your mom did, "if the Witnesses were wrong then God didn?t exist."

Unfortunately, in his experience, this was a sign that the person was not open to reason. But one ray of hope is that you may perhaps get her to teach you the reasons why Jesus and Jehovah chose the WTS as Jehovah's sole channel to mankind. With your help, your mom may learn something new (and damaging) as she is trying to teach you something about the WTS. The book makes reccommendations on how one might accomplish this using the WTS's own history book, "Jehovah's Witnesses, Proclaimers of God's Kingdom".

28

After 4 years, I finally had JWs at my door today!

by bebu in

jw
friends

yesterday i saw two women walking slowly around the end of our street, waiting on porches of empty homes.

i told my husband, "look, there are 2 jws.

we haven't had them come here for 4 years--ever since i mentioned that i had some serious questions (but had never enumerated any points at all).

M.J.

I wish I had your chatting ability. Sounds like you did a great job of showing a personal interest in them and making them open up to you.

6

WT Quote Re:Christmas

by M.J. in

i read a topic recently where someone mentioned a watchtower article stating that a wife was obligated to participate in various christmas activities if it was the unbelieving husband's request.

does anyone know which article that was?.

on a side note, i'd like some tips on how i can obtain a wt cd.

M.J.

I read a topic recently where someone mentioned a Watchtower article stating that a wife was obligated to participate in various Christmas activities if it was the unbelieving husband's request. Does anyone know which article that was?

On a side note, I'd like some tips on how I can obtain a WT CD. Thanks.

13

Watchtower Quote

by TowerWatch in

i'm trying to find the quote where it was stated in the watchtower that without the watchtower publications one could not come to a knowledge of the truth.

something like "if you read the studies in the scriptures for two years with out the bible you could learn the truth but if you read just the bible for two years they would lose the truth".

can anyone help.

M.J.

Here's another one

The world is full of Bibles?why then do the people not know which was to go? Because, they do not also have the teaching or law of the mother, which is light. (WT 5/1/1957, p.274)

There are similar statements from other cults, like the Iglesia ni Cristo:

No, it is beyond man's power and intelligence to study and understand the truth, which is God's word (John 17:17), by himself, without the guidance of God's messenger. (PASUGO, November 1973, p. 19, 20)

The Bible or the word of God is a "mystery which was kept secret." Thus, it is no ordinary book that could be understood or interpreted by just anybody who can read. This is why the apostle Paul quipped: "Always learning and never able to come to the knowledge of the thruth." (II Tim. 3:7, Ibid.) But many people have thought that they could understand the Bible by themselves. Thus the proliferation of numerous self-proclaimed preachers, all claiming to have understood the Bible and trying? --Pasugo, Oct 1995, p.4.

Without being given understanding or revelation, one can never know the mystery of God?s words and can never come to know the truth. This compels us to ask further, "Who, then, is given understanding of God?s words and, therefore, can preach them?" The Lord Himself, further clarified: "For He whom God has sent speaks the words of God, for God does not give the Spirit by measure." (Jn. 3:34)
Those sent by God?His inspired messengers?are the ones exclusively given the understanding of His words: they speak God?s words. On the contrary, thos who are not sent cannot preach the true gospel. They cannot lead man to the true understanding of God?s words and, eventually, to salvation. Apostle Paul wrote: "And how shall they preach unles they are sent?..." (Rom 10:15)
Only those sent by God can preach His words for to them has been revealed His mystery?" Pasugo, October 1995, p.4

52

Is Imperfection the same as Sin?

by jgnat in

lately i have made some pretty bold statements about the value of dialogue.

so i thought i would put it in to practice.

i've picked this topic, one i have not studied out thoroughly.

M.J.

Perfection is a purely theoretical ideal that is created and defined by the mind. As humans, we always accuse ourselves of not being "perfect", but we never stop to think too deeply about what "perfection" really implicates. We never accuse ants or monkeys of being imperfect. How would you define the perfect ant? Do we say an ant is "imperfect" because it does not live up to some theoretical standard of perfection created in our minds? I would say an ant is "adequate" to carry out its function. Same goes for us.

Man, by nature, is a limited being and must function in the variable, material universe. And man is adequate to the task. But a necessary feature of the human mind is to establish ideals and strive toward them, even with the understanding that "perfection" with regard to those ideals will never be realized. Engineers design toward an "ideal" target but understand that they must allow for a certain amount of variation from that target. I think the Bible defines the "ideal" target with regard to sin in Matt 5:48 (NASB): "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect." But it also reminds us that it is never truly attainable (Rom 3:10-12, Rom 3:23). But as we come to accept that we will inevitably "miss the mark", we can also come to realize that God offers a "lifeline" for an eternal reward: Christ's sacrifice. This, I think is the main point. You can theorize all day about how an unlimited being can do this or that, but I think that will just continue to make your head hurt.

7

2004 circuit assembly?

by toreador in

.

since i had started a thread about the district assemble instead of the circuit assembly i started a new one.

does anyone have the talk schedule for the circuit assembly they would like to post for me?

M.J.

OK how about the one day assembly? Can anyone post the info for that one?

26

~Please help answer this question about a Watchtower doctrine~

by FlyingHighNow in

does anyone know what year the wtbts started teaching the mortality of the soul doctrine?

did it preceed the earthly hope doctrine?

i'm curious to know if the wtbts started teaching that your body is your soul, so that they could explain what happens to those with an earthly hope or who look forward to an earthly, fleshly resurrection.. knowing the answer to this question would help me let go of that brainwashing, that we don't have a separate, spirtual soul.

M.J.

Thanks! OK it would appear that the WTS promotes a modern day version of the Sadducees' view of the afterlife (or lack thereof)--they have been able to resolve their Sadducee view with the clear Biblical accounts of eternal reward by tacking on their unique "recreation" doctrine. This is aided by modern analogies of floppy disk "memory" storage, etc.

Yet Paul clearly sided with the Pharisees, against the Saducees on the issue...

26

~Please help answer this question about a Watchtower doctrine~

by FlyingHighNow in

does anyone know what year the wtbts started teaching the mortality of the soul doctrine?

did it preceed the earthly hope doctrine?

i'm curious to know if the wtbts started teaching that your body is your soul, so that they could explain what happens to those with an earthly hope or who look forward to an earthly, fleshly resurrection.. knowing the answer to this question would help me let go of that brainwashing, that we don't have a separate, spirtual soul.

M.J.

Wow Leolaia, quite an impressive post.

The early Christian community drew instead on Pharisee eschatology

I think it is interesting how in light of the Pharisees' view of the soul, Paul makes the statement in Acts 23:6-8:

"Then Paul, knowing that some of them were Sadducees and the others Pharisees, called out in the Sanhedrin, "My brothers, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee. I stand on trial because of my hope in the resurrection of the dead." When he said this, a dispute broke out between the Pharisees and the Sadducees, and the assembly was divided. 8 (The Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, and that there are neither angels nor spirits, but the Pharisees acknowledge them all.) "

The Society, by denying that anything can survive of a person after death, is forced to construct a quite different doctrine of recreation (in which God recreates a person entirely from his memory) and pass it off as the biblical teaching of resurrection.

Does anyone know the history of this doctrine of recreation? It sounds different from what you described as "conditional immortality", which, I believe was the doctrine that CT Russell started out with.??

32

I need the full page illustration of possible impalement

by Mulan in

in the large jw reference bible (page 1578) is a drawing of a man dying on an upright pole.

in penton's book, apocalypse delayed, there is a reference on page 342 to that illustration, mentioning it is only one of 16 drawings, 13 of which show a cross beam.

(another deceitful attempt by jw's).

M.J.

Does anyone know where one can obtain a translation of the captions next to the relevant illustrations in Justus Lipsius' book?

26

~Please help answer this question about a Watchtower doctrine~

by FlyingHighNow in

does anyone know what year the wtbts started teaching the mortality of the soul doctrine?

did it preceed the earthly hope doctrine?

i'm curious to know if the wtbts started teaching that your body is your soul, so that they could explain what happens to those with an earthly hope or who look forward to an earthly, fleshly resurrection.. knowing the answer to this question would help me let go of that brainwashing, that we don't have a separate, spirtual soul.

M.J.

It's rather hard to find definitive information on this online. Many sites which refute "soul sleep" make no distinction between "soul sleep" and soul=body doctrines. But several online reference sites do make a distinction, yet do not elaborate much. Here is such a site:

But I myself would like to know the history of how the Watchtower Society arrived at its current doctrine.