truthseeker's fine thread got me thinking.
there are plenty of forum members from europe, australia, and latin america here.
did the book study in publishers' homes end a few years ago at the time, or near the time, that it did in america?
emeth - I'm sorry; didn't know you're not a native speaker of English.
I still stand behind what I said in principle, just not applying to you. I apply my words to all the goodie-goodie JWs who are so quick to "correct" (I put "correct" in quotation marks because they think they're correcting when often they're wrong).
truthseeker's fine thread got me thinking.
there are plenty of forum members from europe, australia, and latin america here.
did the book study in publishers' homes end a few years ago at the time, or near the time, that it did in america?
Faithful Witness, let me explain why I responded to emeth the way I did. As a JW I have had numerous CO's, DO's, fellow elders, and all manner of JW from 9-year-olds to 99-year-olds point out to me what they thought were errors in my terminology & grammar, in the content of my statements & talks, in my methods in the ministry, in the way I drove, in the way I dressed, etc.... when usually I was right.
Let me give you an example. About twenty-six years ago (around 1987), I was serving as a ministerial servant and because of an elder shortage, I had to conduct the Watchtower Study for a month or so. Well, in one lesson, the Greek word that we transliterate "logos" appeared. It was not the Anglicized version, but it was in italics, referring to the actual Greek word. Well, I know some Greek, definitely including the alphabet and pronunciation. So I pronounced the word as it should be pronounced - with short "o" sounds - as in the English word "log".
As soon as the meeting was over, and elder (who was there but too sickly to conduct the study) approached me and told me the word was pronounced with long vowel sounds. I tried to explain to him, but it was futile. I went home and looked in my huge Webster's dictionary and it showed that even the Anglicized version could be pronounced with short vowels sounds.
Anyway, move forward to about 1995. I'm now an elder conducting the Watchtower Study. The article under consideration was one of the ones having to do with the "celestial phenomena" and the "sign of the son of man". In the article the Greek word that we transliterate"tote” was significant. It should be pronounced with a short “o” sound (as in “log”) and a long “e” sound (as in “they”). However, at the district convention the previous summer the speaker when going over this same matertial (came out at the DC first) wrongly pronounced the word with a long “o” sound. So when it came time for me to conduct the Watchtower Study, I decided I would just pronounce it the way all the other JWs did (knowing that was wrong) so I wouldn’t cause a disturbance.
Well, guess what happened after the study. An elder who literally can half speak English (even though he’s as Amercian as you can get) came up to me as soon as the “amen” in the prayer was said, and said “Magnum, you know, I was listening to the cassette recording of this lesson and the reader pronounced the word “tote” (with a short “o” sound). I swear I just rolled my eyes to myself. You’re damned if you do, and damned if you don’t.
I could give many examples of elders who’ve made a stink of org policy. They say I’m wrong, when they’re clueless and can’t even comprehend references I show them.
So I’ve decided that I’m going to give it right back to them. In the grand scheme, it matters not whether JWs know how their meetings work and what the correct terminology is. But it evidently matters to JWs; otherwise, why would they be so quick to “correct” others? Since it matters to them, I will gladly correct them.
did i miss something?
admittedly, i haven't been keeping up the way i used to.
i just saw on jw.org a publication entitled "research guide for jehovah's witnesses".
Did I miss something? Admittedly, I haven't been keeping up the way I used to. I just saw on jw.org a publication entitled "Research Guide for Jehovah's Witnesses". I was wondering what it was, so I downloaded the pdf version.
from page 3:
THE PURPOSE OF THIS PUBLICATION
Jehovah God urges his people to “keep searching” for understanding and discernment as though they were looking for “hidden treasures.” (Prov. 2:1-5) This means that we need to exert ourselves in searching for answers to our Bible questions and in finding help for our personal concerns in life. This Research Guide for Jehovah’s Witnesses is designed to assist you in your search.
This is not a comprehensive index that lists every subject that has been discussed in each of our publications. However, for each topic that is listed, there are references to current and relevant information in publications that have been produced in English, primarily from the year 2000 onward.
Is this taking the place of the old comprehensive indexes?
I see this as more dumbing down and more effort to hide and sanitize the org's past. Note especially "this is not a comprehensive index" and "current and relevant information" and "primarily from the year 2000 forward". Since it will refer to material primarily from 2000 forward, it's not only hiding the crazy Russell, Rutherford, Franz era stuff, but also more modern stuff. Also, I'm sure "current and relevant" translates to "filtered by us to provide only what we want you to know". More and more like N Korea... more information control.
When I first saw the title of the publication, I thought it must be for Watchtower writers and I was wondering why it would be available online. "Research Guide" sounds so scholarly. But now it realize it's anti-scholar. Good God!!! Is one who is really going to 'keep searching for understanding and discernment as though he were looking for hidden treasures' going to use that publication? Is one who is going to 'exert himself in searching for Bible answers' going to satisfy his grand quest using that marvelous tool???
Forgive me if I'm behind on this and it's already been discussed.
truthseeker's fine thread got me thinking.
there are plenty of forum members from europe, australia, and latin america here.
did the book study in publishers' homes end a few years ago at the time, or near the time, that it did in america?
emeth - Are you a JW? If so, you really need to be careful with your terminology and learn about the organization. You say that "the bookstudy is now integrated in the service meeting".
The Service Meeting is a separate meeting at the end of the occasion. It is preceeded by the Theocratic Ministry School. The Theocratic Ministry School is preceeded by the Congregation Bible Study. There is no such meeting as "the bookstudy", and nothing has been "integrated in the service meeting".
from page 10 of the brochure "Who Are Doing God's Will Today?":
"We also meet together on a midweek evening for a three-part program. First is the 30-minute Congregation Bible Study, a question-and-answer discussion that deepens our understanding of Scriptural principles and Bible prophecy. Next, the 30-minute Theocratic Ministry School begins with a discussion of a portion of the Bible that the congregation has read in advance. Then students who are enrolled in the school give short presentations. A counselor makes observations in order to help us improve our reading and speaking skills. (1 Timothy 4:13) Lastly, in the 30-minute Service Meeting, by means of talks, presentations, and interviews, we learn how to teach the Bible to others."
edit: Hadn't seen Blondie's post when I posted this. She beat me to it.
7 years ago i started on a path i had long ago given up on as impossible.
i met with my elders and told them i could not justify carrying on as a jw.
i went and got my high school qualifications and my higher education diploma (a levels with distinction) in just 12 months.
I am happy for you and I wish you the best. However, while I am happy for you, I am sad for me.
DesirousChange wrote:
You are so fortunate to have gotten on with your life before you wasted most of it pursuing the false promises and unfulfilled dreams of the WTS.
I am about twenty years older than you, and for the last thirty or so, I've wanted to either be a medical doctor or a medical scientist. I love science, and medicine is a great application of science. I had all the college prerequisites necessary for medical school. However, when I was at my prime, the end of this system was supposedly imminent, and I lived accordingly, doing menial work and barely surviving. I remember in about 1987 when one of my non-JW coworkers was accepted to medical school. I got a little depressed over it because I wanted to go, but I didn't think he would make it through the four years because I thought the great tribulation would begin at any moment. Not only did he finish, but he's been out for 23 years. And I would love to be able to tell you what my life was like during those 23 years as a very active JW, but I can't give details for obvious reasons.
Again, I am very glad for you. You did it!!!
had a conversation with an aspiring elder.
he said the end must be close because people are so discouraged that the organization can't last more than 10 years.
this is before we received the please come to the international convention letter.
Apognophos, thanks for the example. I guess that shows it is possible. I guess there a few exeptions that aren't indicative of the bigger trend. I really don't think I would have ever become a JW if things had been like they are now when I came in. I might have associated some, but not become a full-fledged gung-ho JW like I was. In my area, I can't think of a single higher-caliber convert in the last ten, fifteen, or maybe even twenty years. I do know of one who came in about twenty years ago in another area of my state. Very educated, popular, good-looking guy with a very good job - of a profession that requires an advanced degree. In fact, he was so popular (can't give specifics) that it shocked me that he came in. I did some internet snooping to see if I could determine whether he's still in. I found a Facebook page that gives me strong reason to believe he's no longer a JW.
Remember the article in one of the mags about the guy who taught Greek... and became a JW and praised the NWT. A few months ago, I did some research on him and found out he's no longer a JW. I saw at least one reference to him on this site.
had a conversation with an aspiring elder.
he said the end must be close because people are so discouraged that the organization can't last more than 10 years.
this is before we received the please come to the international convention letter.
I don't know whether the org will cease to exist in the next ten years, but in one sense it's already gone. As I and others have already indicated, it's not the same anymore. Consider some athletic team that used to be exciting - attracting new fans, etc. Now, that team just exists and nobody cares about it or follows it. I think something similar has happened with JWs.
Have any of you seen any normal, stable, well-read people with decent intelligence and good common sense become JWs lately? In the past, such did. Probably a lot of us are in that category. I see virtually no new converts in my area now, and certainly none of the caliber I just mentioned. People of that caliber are not going to buy into the religion without doing some simple research and asking some simple questions. And when they do, they are going to get answers - answers that will at least cause them to be skeptical enough of JWs that they'll never make a full commitment. With the increased availability of info now and the passing of time showing JWs to be more and more wrong, I don't see how they can attract any quality members anymore. For sure, the material is dumbed down, nothing's exciting, and the doctrines are largely unprovable and indefensible. Some are outright ludicrous.
Consider the new generation teaching. According to JWs, Jesus was supposed to have been a master teacher who explained things in simple terms that the lowliest of people could understand. How, then, could he use a term like "generation" in a very important message and mean something as ludicrous as two groups of people whose lives overlap? It just doesn't make sense. If that's what he meant, I would not call him a master teacher. The pre-1995 generation definition made a lot more sense (see footnote). And even though it was somewhat flawed, I had no problem teaching it to others. I would not teach anybody the new doctrine.
And it's not just that higher caliber individuals aren't coming in anymore; it seems that some already in are beginning to gain a sense of smell and are realizing that something doesn't smell right. Consider my favorite brother in our circuit. He is very humble, kind, and by far the smartest, most knowledgeable JW I know. He's one of those people who loves to learn - not to be a show-off, but because he loves it and wants answers. He studies Hebrew, Greek, and Aramaic. He reads and compares different Bible translations. He has a big library. He is always seeking and questioning. He knows the Bible better than anybody I know. I don't know the whole story, but I know something's up with him. He's not an elder anymore. He has talked to me a few times and expressed some points that I really appreciated because I like people who are real and honest. I don't feel that I can give anymore details right now about him - maybe later.
Consider some more anecdotal evidence. In my area it's an awful chore to get an assembly or convention part that requres interviewing, for example, a family. An average, stable family with members having common sense and being able to say "Jehovah's Witnesses" (instead of "Jehovah Witness" or "Jehovah Witnesses") is just almost nonexistent.
A couple of decades ago, I knew JWs who were smart, well-read, and knowledgeable. One older brother studied Koine Greek. Another chose world history as an area of expertise. I was proud to take new ones to meetings then. I invite no one to meetings now; it's embarassing. There are some smart non-JW people that I know that I really care about and when I was still pretty confident that JWs had the truth, would have loved to invite to meetings, but doing so would have destroyed any possible favorable impression they might have had of JWs. For the last ten or fifteen years, I've had a number of older sisters confide in me about the quality (actually, lack thereof) of public talks. It has gone, and is going, downhill. One regular feature of the Watchtower study in our area (in at least two congregations) is what Mrs Magnum and I call the dictionary game. The conductor will ask, for example, "now what does this here word "transgress" mean?" For some reason sisters always play the game. One will comment in a higher tone: "well, my dictionary says....". Another, in a lower tone: "Well, my dictionary says...". Then a third, in a mid-level tone: "My dictionary says...". Then the conductor says "yes, and another dictionary says...". And, I swear, it's common words like the one I mentioned.
So, I have no prediction as to how long the org will last in the sense of just existing, but I think to some, in another sense, it's already gone.
footnote: Even though it made a lot more sense, it wasn't without its problems. By 1994, it had been 80 years; that's a life-span, not really a generation.
the recent letter being us to come to detroit shows that jws are beginning not to take the gb seriously anymore.
the buzz following the meeting was that the letter was unprecedented in its tone.
this coming from long time jws of 30 years plus.
My view of the gb (lower case intended) has definitely changed lately. I used to think it (the body) had a hotline to heaven - that it had all kinds of secret info that it couldn't yet reveal to us. Now I know that gb members just guess, and I feel that they sometimes just make up stuff to suit their purpose or agenda.
The whole org has changed lately; there's just a different feel/atmospere. I remember a few decades ago, when I was young, listening to older ones sit around and talk at motel pools after district convention sessions. They had deep, exciting conversations about topics like the King of the North. But those days are over. For one thing, JWs now are so ignorant that they don't even know their own theology; they're incapable of such discussions. Secondly, it seems that the org now discourages such conversations; I think that higher-ups know that such conversations are dangerous to the org. The holes in JW theology are becoming ever more apparent, and such conversations expose them more.
It's just so unbearably boring & monotonous now. It got to the point that I didn't even know what to talk about in the ministry anymore. I refused to wake somebody up on a Saturday morn and present an article on how butter is made in the Swiss Alps.
The org is becoming more and more like N Korea. Those in the org can only praise the great leaders and the regime. It's becoming such that negative talk is tolerated less and less. JWs have even been warned recently to be on guard against their own family members.
"glenn close stepped on the stage to honor the academy members who sadly passed away this evening.".
.. what did the reporter mean to say?
coco.
Compound Complex, I agree with your comments in your last post above; good analysis. In my version (a few posts above), I was thinking that the "sadly" applied to Glenn Close's demeanor, etc. as she walked on stage to honor the deceased. However, you indicate that the adverbial "sadly" applies to the situation in general. I think that makes more sense and is probably the intent of the owner of the original goofy sentence.
"glenn close stepped on the stage to honor the academy members who sadly passed away this evening.".
.. what did the reporter mean to say?
coco.
original: "Glenn Close stepped on the stage to honor the academy members who sadly passed away this evening."
my version: "Glenn Close sadly stepped on the stage this evening to honor the academy members who had passed away."
