Brainfloss

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Posts by Brainfloss

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  387

  Active JW's, can you defend "THE TRUTH?"

  by DATA-DOG in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  as of yet, no member of the jehovah's witness faith can defend their unique beliefs.

  when the dust settles, it all comes down to blind faith in men's ever-changing ideas.

  this "unique belief" was not a "true teaching of the bible.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Brainfloss

  Problemaddict asked:

  are you sure that WT still teaches that apostates are part of a composite antichrist?

  not sure but they are definately "mentally diseased"
• 
  387

  Active JW's, can you defend "THE TRUTH?"

  by DATA-DOG in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  as of yet, no member of the jehovah's witness faith can defend their unique beliefs.

  when the dust settles, it all comes down to blind faith in men's ever-changing ideas.

  this "unique belief" was not a "true teaching of the bible.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Brainfloss

  Dot said

  Brainfloss: I have no idea what you mean to accomplish with that list. All of those things are unchristian practices, anyone practicing them unrepentantly is not serving Jehovah in a way acceptable to him. Therefore he has no place among Gods people.

  is that doctrine taken from jesus words?

  See for your self taken from jwfacts.com

  Jesus Advice

  Jesus commanded that we not judge but love all, particularly those we consider our enemies.

  Luke 6:27-37 "But I say to YOU who are listening, Continue to love YOUR enemies, to do good to those hating YOU, to bless those cursing YOU, to pray for those who are insulting YOU. To him that strikes you on the one cheek, offer the other also; and from him that takes away your outer garment, do not withhold even the undergarment.Give to everyone asking you, and from the one taking your things away do not ask [them] back. Also, just as YOU want men to do to YOU, do the same way to them. And if YOU love those loving YOU, of what credit is it to YOU? For even the sinners love those loving them.And if YOU do good to those doing good to YOU, really of what credit is it to YOU? Even the sinners do the same.Also, if YOU lend [without interest] to those from whom YOU hope to receive, of what credit is it to YOU? Even sinners lend [without interest] to sinners that they may get back as much. To the contrary, continue to love YOUR enemies and to do good and to lend [without interest], not hoping for anything back; and YOUR reward will be great, and YOU will be sons of the Most High, because he is kind toward the unthankful and wicked. Continue becoming merciful, just as YOUR Father is merciful. Moreover, stop judging, and YOU will by no means be judged; and stop condemning, and YOU will by no means be condemned."

  Jesus introduced the standard on how Christian wrongdoers should be treated, saying at Matthew18:15-17:

  "Moreover, if your brother commits a sin, go lay bare his fault between you and him alone. If he listens to you, you have gained your brother. But if he does not listen, take along with you one or two more, in order that at the mouth of two or three witnesses every matter may be established. If he does not listen to them, speak to the congregation. If he does not listen even to the congregation, let him be to you just as a man of the nations and as a tax collector."

  Jesus did not say to never utter a word to an unrepentant wrong doer but to treat them as a tax collector. He himself spoke to and ate with tax collectors. (Matthew 9:11).

  1 Corinthians 5:11

  The majority of information on how to treat wrongdoers within the congregation comes from Paul and the main support the Watchtower uses to enforce shunning is from 1 Corinthians 5.

  Paul showed a balanced approach to wrongdoers, advising not to socialise with such ones, but to still admonish [them] as a brother. 2 Thessalonians is key to understanding that wrongdoers should be marked, not disfellowshipped.

  2 Thessalonians 3:6, 14-15 Now we are giving YOU orders, brothers, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ, to withdraw from every brother walking disorderly and not according to the tradition YOU received from us . 14 But if anyone is not obedient to our word through this letter, keep this one marked, stop associating with him, that he may become ashamed. 15 And yet do not be considering him as an enemy, but continue admonishing him as a brother.

  Paul did not indicate that marking was only for non-serious sin as the word through this letter at 2 Thessalonians included those not glorifying the name of our Lord Jesus, those refusing to work for a living, and any who had been seduced by apostasy. Paul did not say to disfellowship and shun such people, but rather instructed the congregation to mark or take note of such a person, yet continue admonishing him as a brother. In similar vein the following scriptures do not instruct complete shunning of the person, but rather to take note so as not to be influenced by their wrong ways.

  Romans 16:17 "Now I exhort YOU, brothers, to keep your eye on (the word 'mark' is used in many translations) those who cause divisions and occasions for stumbling contrary to the teaching that YOU have learned, and avoid them. "

  Titus 3:10 "As for a man that promotes a sect, reject him after a first and a second admonition; knowing that such a man has been turned out of the way and is sinning, he being self-condemned."

  At 1 Corinthians 5 Paul specifically outlined practices for which to cease mixing with a brother, yet this too is similar to the advice given when marking a brother.

  1 Corinthians 5:11 "But now I am writing YOU to quit mixing in company with anyone called a brother that is a fornicator or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do YOU not judge those inside, while God judges those outside? Remove the wicked [man] from among yourselves."

  1 Corinthians does not say to totally shun a brother who is a wrong doer, rather it says to quit mixing in company with such a person and not eat with such a man and hence refers to socialising. As the Watchtower has explained, this refers to socialising as friends.

  "God's Word states that we should 'not even eat with such a man.' (1 Cor. 5:11) Hence, we also avoid social fellowship with an expelled person. This would rule out joining him in a picnic, party, ball game, or trip to the mall or theater or sitting down to a meal with him either in the home or at a restaurant." Kingdom Ministry2002 Aug p.3

  This does not state that this type of person must never be spoken to. As Paul explained at 2 Thessalonians 3:14-15 (quoted earlier), if they are at a meeting it would be reasonable to encourage them. Most certainly a polite greeting is acceptable.

  1 Corinthians is also specific as to who these words apply to. This advice is in regards to a person"called a brother" who "is" a wrongdoer. No indication is given that they should be avoided when they are no longer recognised as a Jehovah's Witness brother. Nor does it say to shun a person who has stopped their wrongdoing. It is regularly the case that a teenage Witness is disfellowshipped for smoking or fornication. Years later they no longer practice what they were disfellowshipped for and are no longer known in the community as a brother, and so their continued shunning is unjustified.

  It can also be noted that Paul did not insist that everyone participate in the shunning. Later he wrote that the "majority" participate in the rebuke, showing that some in the congregation may choose not to show rebuke to the person.

  2 Corinthians 2:5-6 "Now if anyone has caused sadness M , he has saddened, not me, but all of YOU to an extent-not to be too harsh in what I say. This rebuke given by the majority is sufficient for such a man, …"

  The New World Translation reference M shows Paul was here referring to the situation discussed at 1 Corinthians 5, (as do Christian scholars).

  Paul gave similar advice on a number of occasions to 'mark' and 'avoid' wrongdoers. This does not mean that the person must be totally ignored, never uttered a greeting, avoiding eye contact, crossing the street to get away from, all common experiences of disfellowshipped Jehovah's Witnesses.

  2 John 10

  Watchtower extreme treatment of not even saying "hello" to a disfellowshipped Witnesses is not based on the above scriptures, but rather on a single statement at 2 John 7-11:

  For many deceivers have gone forth into the world, persons not confessing Jesus Christ as coming in the flesh. This is the deceiver and the antichrist. Look out for yourselves, that YOU do not lose the things we have worked to produce, but that YOU may obtain a full reward. Everyone that pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. He that does remain in this teaching is the one that has both the Father and the Son. If anyone comes to YOU and does not bring this teaching, never receive him into YOUR homes or say a greeting to him. For he that says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works.

  2 John is referring to the antichrist and should not be applied across the board to all forms of sin, as done by the Watchtower Society.

  In order to justify their stance, the Watchtower describes those that stop being Witnesses as apostate and of the Antichrist, saying that "the word apostasy comes from a Greek word that literally means a standing away from but has the sense of desertion, abandonment or rebellion ... [and included] abandonment of right moral standards ... willfully abandoning the Christian congregation thereby become part of the 'antichrist." Watchtower 1985 Jul 15 p.31 In reality, many who stop being Witnesses continue to follow Jesus and Bible morals, but have come to believe that the Watchtower Society is not directed by Jesus.

  Interestingly, Johns advice here was not limited to former Christians. It included anyone denying Christ. This included Jews that rejected Jesus and people of the nations worshipping other Gods. Yet the Watchtower stance is to apply this only to Jehovah's Witnesses.

  The meaning of the phrase never receive him into YOUR homes should be understood in the context of the hospitality of first century Jerusalem. Since Christians held congregation meetings in their homes John possibly felt that inviting a denier of Christ into a home could be viewed as sharing worship with non-Christians.

  Likewise the term to never "say a greeting" needs to be understood in light of first century practice. In the following article, the Watchtower incorrectly claims that John used the term "greeting" to indicate a simple hello.

  "John here used khairo, which was a greeting like good day or hello. (Acts 15:23; Matthew 28:9) He did not use aspazomai (as in verse 13), which means to enfold in the arms, thus to greet, to welcome and may have implied a very warm greeting, even with an embrace. (Luke 10:4; 11:43; Acts 20:1, 37; 1 Thessalonians 5:26) So the direction at 2 John 11 could well mean not to say even hello to such ones."Watchtower 1988 Apr 15 p.27

  This article claims the word khairo is used to forbid a simple greeting, instead of aspazomai which means a more affectionate embrace, enfolding in the arms, kiss, greeting or welcome. This is incorrect, and the opposite is true. Strong's Concordance states;

  • 5463 chairo {khah'-ee-ro} 1) to rejoice, be glad 2) to rejoice exceedingly 3) to be well, thrive 4) in salutations, hail! 5) at the beginning of letters: to give one greeting, salute
  • 783 aspasmos {as-pas-mos} 1) a salutation, either oral or written

  2 John does not indicate a polite greeting is wrong. John here shows that a person is a sharer in the Antichrist's wicked works if he shows acceptance and agreement with the evildoers cause or teachings, or wishes them favour and success.

  The Watchtower Society uses this single Scripture in 2 John to dictate that every disfellowshipped or disassociated person should not even be politely greeted. This is applied regardless of what the person was disfellowshipped for, including a long list of Society originated rules such as gambling, smoking, or authorising a blood transfusion. Every single one of a disfellowshipped persons Witness friends is told to never greet them again, unless they repent and are formally reinstated by the Watchtower Society. I am aware of friends whose own mothers or their own children have not spoken to them for upwards of 20 years. Yet such shunning is only ever discussed once, was only to apply to the Antichrist, and as such is being misused to its extremity.
• 
  387

  Active JW's, can you defend "THE TRUTH?"

  by DATA-DOG in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  as of yet, no member of the jehovah's witness faith can defend their unique beliefs.

  when the dust settles, it all comes down to blind faith in men's ever-changing ideas.

  this "unique belief" was not a "true teaching of the bible.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Brainfloss

  DOT says

  The Bible says to abstain from blood. How you decide to twist/interpret those words is up to you, but they are there in black and white. The FDS didn't make them up. As for beards, nobody is df'd for that, it is a personal decision. And when they predicted possible dates for Armageddon, they were just theories, not held as infallible in the way the Bibles words are. I meant that they don't go beyond the Bible in terms of doctrine.

  Again I will refer you to jwfacts.com

  please do verify the references

  607 / 1914 / Seven Times

  Birthday Celebrations
  
  Blood Transfusions
  
  Cross or Stake
  
  Disfellowshipping
  
  Earthquakes
  
  Global Flood of Noah
  
  Great Crowd and Other Sheep
  
  Jehovah - God's Name?
  
  Last Days
  
  Mediator for only the 144,000
  
  144,000 - a literal number?
  
  Paradise Earth?
  
  Preaching - only Witnesses?
  
  Trinity

  Changed Teachings

  1800s - Changed Date Doctrine
  
  1914 - Failed Doctrine
  
  1925 - "Millions Now Living Will Never Die!"
  
  1935 & Increasing Memorial Partakers
  
  1975 Quotes
  
  Beth-Sarim
  
  Baptism Questions
  
  Christmas, Birthdays & Flag Salute
  
  Da Vinci Code - Freemasonry & Adventist links
  
  Elder arrangement
  
  Generation
  
  Medical Advice
  
  Prophecies - Revelation and Daniel
  
  Resurrection - for whom
  
  Superior Authorities
  
  Worship Jesus
  
  Zionism
• 
  387

  Active JW's, can you defend "THE TRUTH?"

  by DATA-DOG in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  as of yet, no member of the jehovah's witness faith can defend their unique beliefs.

  when the dust settles, it all comes down to blind faith in men's ever-changing ideas.

  this "unique belief" was not a "true teaching of the bible.

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Brainfloss

  taken from jwfacts.com

  verified by me and countless others check for yourself

  Watchtower Reasons for Disfellowshipping

  Bible discussion of shunning in 1 Corinthian's 15 and 2 John is limited to just the following areas; Fornication, Greed, idolatry, Revilers, Practicing Drunkenness, Extortion and One who does not remain in the teaching of the Christ.

  This list should be the full extent of reasons for which to be disfellowshipped. In fact, Diotrephes was reprimanded for attempting to throw people out of the congregation unnecessarily.

  3 John 9,10 "I wrote something to the congregation, but Diotrephes, who likes to have the first place among them, does not receive anything from us with respect. That is why, if I come, I will call to remembrance his works which he goes on doing, chattering about us with wicked words. Also, not being content with these things, neither does he himself receive the brothers with respect, and those who are wanting to receive them he tries to hinder and to throw out of the congregation."

  Following is the vast list of offences the Watchtower has created for which a Jehovah's Witness can be disfellowshipped or disassociated.

  The abbreviations refer to the following publications:
  
  - Kingdom Ministry (km)
  - Watchtower (w)
  - Jehovah's Witnesses - Proclaimers of Gods Kingdom (1993) (jv)
  - Pay Attention to Yourselves and to All the Flock (ks91-E)
  - Organised to Accomplish Our Ministry (om)
  - Insight on the Scriptures, Volume 1 or 2 (it-1 or 2)

  1. Adultery (sexual intercourse with a person other than your marriage mate), includes;

  • Abandoning wife and eloping with another woman - w79 11/15 31-2, w76 p.728
  • Planned adultery to break Scriptural marriage ties - w83 3/15 p.29
  • Remarriage without Scriptural permission - w56 10/1 p.597
  • Polygamy - jv 176
  • Dating a person not legally divorced - ks91-E p.135
• Apostasy - w83 4/1 pp.22-4, km 8/80 pp.1, 4. includes;
• Rebellion against Jehovah's organization - w63 7/1
• Promoting sects - it-2 886
• Associating with disfellowshipped people including;
• Friends - ks91-E p.103, w81 9/15 pp.25-6, w55 10/1 p.607
• Family - ks91-E p.103
• Blood and blood transfusions - w61 1/15 ks91-E p.95, jv p.183-4
• Drug use - ks91-E p.96
• Drunkenness - ks91-E p.95, it-1 656
• Dishonest business practices - w63 7/1, w86 11/15 14
• Employment violating Christian principles - km 9/76 p.6, km 2/74
• Working for any religious organization - ks91-E p.95
• Working in a gambling institution - ks91-E p.136
• Selling tobacco - ks91-E p.96
• Contract work at a military establishment
• False worship. Includes;
• Attending another church ks91-E p.94
• Following mourning customs that involve false worship - w85 4/15 p.25
• Fornication it-1 863
• Bestiality - w83 6/1 p.25
• Incestuous marriage - w78 3/15 p.26
• Artificial insemination and surrogate motherhood.
• "True Christians, therefore, avoid surrogate motherhood as well as any procedures that involve the use of donated sperm, eggs, or embryos" g04 9/22;
• "Artificial insemination of a married woman by a donor other than her husband makes her guilty of adultery" g74 8/8 p.28
• sexual abuse of children - g93 10/8 p.10Reviling - ks91-E p.94, w96 7/15 pp.17-18; it-1 p.991; it-2 p.802
• Fraud - ks91-E p.94, om pp.142-3
• Gambling or related employment - w80 9/1, ks91-E p.136
• Gluttony - w86 5/1
• Greediness, this in used to include;
• gambling ks91-E p.95
• extortion ks91-E p.95, w89 1/15 22, it-1 p.789
• greed in relation to bride-price: w98 9/15 p.25
• Homosexuality - w83 6/1 pp.24-6
• Idolatry - w52 3/1 p.138
• Loose conduct - ks91-E pp.93, 96, w83 3/15 p.31, w73 9/15 p.574, it-2 p.264, ks91-E p.93, w83 3/15 p.31, w73 9/15 pp.574-6, w97 9/1 p.14, it-2 p.246.

This includes;

• Sexual perversion
• Disregard for Jehovah's moral standards
• Disrespect, disregard or even contempt for standards, laws and authority,

Rather than restricted to the usual definition of sexual perversion, the Watchtower defines "loose conduct" as including "disrespect to elders". This enables this term to be used to disfellowship for a wide range of offences not elsewhere covered, and as such is used to cover all manner of sins, such as refusal to cease fellowship with disfellowshipped people, or even being contemptuous in a judicial meeting where no other sin can be proven.

1. Lying - ks91-E p.94, g00 2/8 p.21
2. Non neutral activities (involvement in politics and the military) - ks91-E p.96
3. Military service and non military service including working casual work (certain civilian work has recently been made a conscience matter w96 5/1 p.20) - ks91-E p.96
4. Obscene speech - ks91-E p.95
5. Parents condoning immorality - w56 p.566
6. Political involvement, including voting or holding a political card in Malawi - ks91-E p.96 (w99 11/1 p.28 made voting a conscience matter)
7. Porneia. Includes oral and anal sex between married couples, mutual masturbation between persons not married to each other, homosexuality, lesbianism, fornication, adultery, incest, and bestiality. - ks91-E p.93
8. Slander - ks91-E p.94, w63 7/1, w89 10/15 p.14, om p.142
9. Smoking or selling tobacco - km 2/74, ks91-E p.96
10. Spiritism (includes yoga w02 8/1 p.22) - w55 10/1 p.607
11. Stealing, thievery - om pp.142-5, ks91-E p.94
12. Subversive activity - w95 10/1 p.31
13. Uncleanness
• Sexually perverse practices within marriage, such as oral and anal sex - w83 3/15 p.31
• Heavy petting and breast fondling - ks91-E p.92
• Touching of sexual parts - ks91-E p.91
• Practice of viewing abhorrent Pornography - w2012 3/15 p.31
• Violation of secular law if flagrant attitude - w86 10/1 p.31
• Violence, extreme physical abuse, fits of anger - ks91-E p.96, w75 p.287, g01 11/8 p.12
• Includes Boxing w81 7/1 pp.30-1, ks91-E p.142
• Wilfull non support of family, endangerment of mates spirituality - w88 11/1 pp.22-3, km 9/73 p.8, ks91-E p.95
• Worldly celebrations such as Christmas - ks91-E p.95 (It appears celebrating birthdays is not a reason to be disfellowshipped) think about that a bit DOT