Posts by Odrade

149

Does the Policy of the Watchtower Create a Safe Haven for Child Molesters?

by listen in

not a society apologist!!

just wanting to know what you all think.

does this "sound" fair & balanced, you decide.

Odrade

How do you know she was not ostracized? Were you there? I've known people who were shunned for less. All they have to do is give a "local needs" talk that loosely identifies her as "marked," and nobody in the congregation would lift a finger to help her. Nothing in your editorial proves any kind of lie on her part.

Now, I read your blog. I read your ridiculous editorial on the account of S. Poisson. You have yet to show a single FACT that proves that any of this is a lie. You also have yet to show a single definitive POLICY regarding the handling of child molestors. Either you don't understand what a policy really is, or you are just being belligerent in your defense of the indefensible. Saying that one should report where is is required, is not a policy. It is simply a suggestion, and a very weak one at that.

In addition, what possible protection is it for a congregation with children, when a child rapist is reproved privately (because he is repentant supposedly,) and nobody in the congregation is ever informed that he may present a danger to their children? There is absolutely no protection at all, yet this possible, even likely scenario, would have been handled within the scope of the "policy" of the WTS.

149

Does the Policy of the Watchtower Create a Safe Haven for Child Molesters?

by listen in

not a society apologist!!

just wanting to know what you all think.

does this "sound" fair & balanced, you decide.

Odrade

We have given you the documented evidence as to the policy of the WTS and just what the elders have been instructed to do. We have shown the reasonableness of the policy and how lawyers would cringe if they thought the WTS was saying you can't report child molesting, you can appoint former child molesters as servants, you must DF anyone who reports it or tells someone else. We have shown the court cases which have exhonerated JWs. We have documented the lies of SilentLambs and Sarah Poisson. We have shown the Bible reason for the two witness rule and just what it means. We have shown you numerous publications which say child abuse should not be hidden and that we will not protect child abusers from the law. What have you shown us?

You haven't shown any policy at all. You've shown a handful of loose suggestions that may or might be applied in certain circumstances, and only necessarily when required by law, otherwise it is up to the discretion of the BOE. This is NOT a policy.

The "policy" is not reasonable. The "policy" states that one MIGHT not be reappointed as a servant, (leaving the door open for a judgement call... again, NOT a policy, merely a "guideline." You have NOT shown court cases which exhonerate JWs, you have only referenced a court case that is now concluded, that states that not enough evidence was presented. A fair look at the court documents reveals that the judge found many disturbing aspects of the WTS handling of that case, though it did not meet the LEGAL REQUIREMENTS to hold them accountable. VERY different from being cleared of all charges. Is this poor comprehension on your part? Or is it intellectual dishonesty? Or outright lies and distortions?

WHO has documented the lies of SilentLambs and Miss Poisson? I haven't seen any proof or documentation of lies by either party. Not on this thread, and not on your blog. No proof.

You have quoted the bible's two witness law. You have not explained how it is that this law, written as a principle, and not specifically toward any particular sin, would require substantiation of the rape of a child at the mouth of two or more witnesses. You have not explained how that principle allows you to treat the child rapist as a "tax collector," in other words, just as a "worldly" person. You have also not explained how it is a rule, yet nowhere else in the NT is that extremely important rule of the WT regarding the establishment of guilt, is the be all and end all of the BOE's responsibilty toward victims of criminal assault. Where is the proof? Where is the evidence? Where is the "policy?"

WE have shown YOU countless instances where the wishy-washy "policy" of the WT has allowed for abuse of the flock, perpetration of crimes and intentional or unintentional infliction of additional pain and emotional/psychological trauma on children who have already been raped by members in good standing in the congregation.

I would like to extend an invitation to you: Next time the Convicted RAPIST of two (at least) of my childhood friends, the man who tried on numerous occasions to fondle me, and who did get away with inappropriately touching other young girls in my kingdom hall, next time he is scheduled to give a Public Talk in my home congregation, I invite you to come along and see how the policy effectively deals with child rapists, and keeps the congregation protected. He should be on the schedule sometime in the next 8 weeks. Better yet, why don't you come with me and visit one of the Kingdom Halls where he will be the visiting speaker. Let's see if the potential host families are warned that if they have any 8-9 year old daughters in their home, they would be advised not to invite him over for lunch? Why don't we go to that hall and ask around if anyone, including the elders in the host congregation, have been advised that he is a registered predatory sex offender in good standing in the congregation?

149

Does the Policy of the Watchtower Create a Safe Haven for Child Molesters?

by listen in

not a society apologist!!

just wanting to know what you all think.

does this "sound" fair & balanced, you decide.

Odrade

FODN:

They went after the Quotes site, and won their case, so why daon't they go after silentlambs?

Technically, they did not win their case, they didn't even have a very good case. They just had lots of money and were willing to throw it at Quotes. Quotes acknowledged that he could not possibly raise the kind of money he needed to defend himself all the way to a judgement against WT, so he settled.

But you do raise a good question. If SL is so full of lies and slander, why has the WTS not taken them to court over the issue? Is it because their dirty laundry regarding the mishandling of 1000s of cases of child rape in the congregation would then be submitted into evidence and made a part of the public record? Of course this is simply an inference made without facts in evidence, but it is certainly interesting to consider. It seems to me that a religious organization with such an unassailable, ironclad and "superior" policy regarding the handling of abuse within its constituency, would be very motivated to defend their good name. After all, having such a good and airtight protocol for action would almost assure a favorable outcome, would it not?

149

Does the Policy of the Watchtower Create a Safe Haven for Child Molesters?

by listen in

not a society apologist!!

just wanting to know what you all think.

does this "sound" fair & balanced, you decide.

Odrade

Let's break that "policy" down, shall we?

In addition to making a report to the branch office, the elders may be required by law to report even uncorroborated or unsubstantiated allegations to the authorities. If so, we expect the elders to comply. Additionally, the victim may wish to report the matter to the authorities, and it is his or her absolute right to do so.

The operative word here, as has been pointed out, is "MAY." The elders MAY be required to report. This is not a policy. This is a statement of possible outcomes. Then they state "IF SO," IF the State REQUIRES reporting, the elders are expected to comply. What about in the states where clergy confidentiality supercedes mandatory reporting? In those cases the Society has no "policy" to report allegations of child rape. It is up to the individual elder body. Did you get that? NO OFFICIAL POLICY. Period, full stop. To borrow your words, you are wrong, wrong, wrong. I hope you aren't responsible for any children getting raped...

Elders are told time and time again that they should never discourage anyone from going to the police since child molesting is a crime.

What happens to an elder who DOES discourage anyone from going the police? While the debateable "official policy" is that they should never discourage police reporting, what happens if they do discourage reporting? What is the official policy on that? Hand slap? Phone call from legal? Removal from elder body? Good ol' boy handshake? I see NO official policy here either, and never have.

And also this from the 1992 letter to elders: As members or the community in which Caesar still acts as God's minister and hence still has a certain authority, all in the Christian congregation would want to consider their personal and moral responsibility to alert the appropriate authorities in cases where there has been committed or there exists a risk that there might be committed a serious criminal offence of this type (see ks91, page 138) In child abuse cases such authorities might include the family doctor, the Social Services, the NSPCC, or the police.

"All... would want to consider their personal and moral responsibility..." is NOT a policy. It's not even a suggestion to report. It's only a suggestion that JWs decide whether or not they wish to report allegations of abuse.

"In child abuse cases such authorities MIGHT include the family doctor, the Social Services, the NSPCC, or the police." MIGHT, again the operative word is MIGHT. Thus it follows that it also MIGHT NOT. Again, where is the "official policy?" This is subterfuge, misdirection, politicospeak, loaded language and double talk at its best.

So far, YOU have shown not one single thing that is an unassailable "official policy" of the WTS regarding handling of charges of child rape. There are more loopholes in this "policy" than there are in corporate accounting, which, in all seriousness, is probably what this supposed "policy" boils down to.

My "opinion" is based on observation, reading the "policy" very carefully, and listening to recorded WT spokespeople on their "policy" regarding sex abuse. Not, as you put it, "false information gleaned from enemies of JWs."

I have seen no policy yet, just a bunch of pandering doublespeak from the WTS.

149

Does the Policy of the Watchtower Create a Safe Haven for Child Molesters?

by listen in

not a society apologist!!

just wanting to know what you all think.

does this "sound" fair & balanced, you decide.

Odrade

If you are a gas station attendant or a grocery store clerk, maybe you shouldn't immediately be dismissed. But if you are an elementary school teacher, or a youth pastor, you absolutely without question should immediately be put on a paid leave of absence while a competent LEGAL investigation takes place. It all depends on the circumstances and vulnerability of the children in such events.

A basic wrong assumption is being made here: Since it cannot (according to the apologists,) be proven, that the WT is doing something wrong, it must be assumed that they are doing what is right. That is patently incorrect, and has resulted in additional harm being done to scores of youngsters. Another erroneous assumption is being made, that the elders, (who have no more training than any random person pulled off the street,) are competent to perform this investigation and decide what should be done regarding accusations. Furthermore, they are hobbled by a religious administration who may have the concern to protect children, but whose concern is being overridden by their even greater concern with protecting their reputation.
This is exactly the issue that got other churches into hot water with the legal system. The difference is, the WT still instructs elders to handle matters internally, unless doing so is specifically in violation of mandatory reporting laws or other legislation. Specifically preventing an individual from going to the authorities with abuse allegations is definitely against the law, so the WT will never tell someone outright that they cannot do so. However, in States where clerical confidentiality supercedes mandatory reporting, it would neither be surprising, nor unusual for an elder body to "encourage" the would-be reporting individual to "consider the reproach that YOU will be bringing on Jehovah." Such admonition would have the effect of being imperative instruction, given the position of authority and oversight by the elders that the WT has ingrained in the average publisher. Consider also the fact that anyone "encouraged" to not report, where it is not explicitly required by law, would be seen as rebellious and in need of correction, if they defied the instruction to not report. Regardless of the official policy, (which, it must be pointed out, is so poorly stated as to exactly what to do in these situations, as to be practically worthless,) each elder body acts autonomously regarding each event, as has been repeatedly stated in court by the WT.
This insistence that each elder body acts independently, and testimony from WT attorneys that the WT cannot be held responsible for the reporting or non-reporting of incidents by local BOEs, effectively negates all "official policy" set in place by JW-media or other public/private statements. Therefore, it could be stated that practically speaking the WTS does NOT have an "official policy," since it refused to either impose those standards unilaterally to each and every congregation, regardless of State legislation, or to take responsibility for the uneven application of the Society's "policy."

These factors and more, make the WTS entirely reprehensible for any subsequent assaults on children that occur after even a single congregation servant is aware of allegations of abuse.
Fortunately, even the courts are beginning to see it this way, and there will almost certainly be monetary and punitive damages awarded in the near future as these ridiculous policies are shown to be what they really are, simply legalistic maneuvering and posturing, to protect the reputation and financial resources of a religious publishing agency.

149

Does the Policy of the Watchtower Create a Safe Haven for Child Molesters?

by listen in

not a society apologist!!

just wanting to know what you all think.

does this "sound" fair & balanced, you decide.

Odrade

Keo, your desire to be "fair" is blinding you to the fact that corruption and evil is being tolerated regarding this policy. If your dog had chicken feathers hanging out of his mouth when the neighbor confronted you, would you require that then neighbor produce two individuals that you felt were trustworthy to be eyewitnesses to the actual act of eating his chickens committed by your dog?

149

Does the Policy of the Watchtower Create a Safe Haven for Child Molesters?

by listen in

not a society apologist!!

just wanting to know what you all think.

does this "sound" fair & balanced, you decide.

Odrade

3W: #1 Leo Greenlees

#2 Big Tex indicates his own rapist father is still a servant. There are many people on here (including myself) who could name known and convicted child molestors who are currently serving in some capacity in the congregation.

#3 There are FOUR undisfellowshipped child molestors in my home congregation. Only one of them was ever disfellowshipped, and they let him back in after only a few months.

#4 If a monetary judgement handed down from a US court is what it takes to convince you, keep an eye on what is happening in Napa Valley, CA. So far the WT has taken a major beating on all motions.
As far as the JWs having better policies, even the public school system has better methods for dealing with molestors. The answer is not shunning, the answer is doing background checks on anyone in a position of authority in any capacity, and in not ever letting anyone with a record have access to children, as well as informing parents if there is someone that could potentially victimize their children.
In my personal experience, I spent many hours in the home of a child rapist, playing with his kids, (who were being raped possibly on the same days I was there,) and did I find out from my father, when he was informed about what was happening? No, I learned that the man was a child rapist from the news media when his wife and daughter turned him in to the authorities. So tell me again how well it was handled? Because I'm telling you, the elders handled the rapist's case down to the letter of WT law, but if I hadn't seen it in the newspaper, I never would have known.
So explain to me just how that is protecting the congregation, and an effective policy? Oh, BTW, that child rapist never was disfellowshipped. He's still a member in good standing in the congregation.

22

Paypal sucks

by peacefulpete in

jw
friends

i know its been said many times before but man does paypal suck.

for anyone out there who uses ebay and its paypal payment system, take warning!

i've used it many times before as both seller and buyer and no complaint except for the fees involved.

Odrade

I also got taken, (fortunately for a relatively small amount,) by paypal. Their fraud department is ridiculous and ineffectual. The seller sent me an insured package, which never showed up. I got a formal confirmation from the P.O. that the package was never delivered, and the seller refused to either file a claim, or give me the info I needed to file a claim.
Because I had insured the item, I filed a fraud claim with paypal and ebay, but they refused to investigate. Bottom line, I lost my $. Seller has my $. I have no product.
This has not been my first negative experience with paypal/ebay. I use them as little as possible, though sometimes it is unavoidable.

149

Does the Policy of the Watchtower Create a Safe Haven for Child Molesters?

by listen in

not a society apologist!!

just wanting to know what you all think.

does this "sound" fair & balanced, you decide.

Odrade

I read the blog. You are a disgusting, vile, low excuse for a human being. You accuse those who were raped and brutalized as children of being liars, even labelling Sara Poisson's example as "poissonous lies." You defend an organization that leaves the door open for more rape and brutality of children as having the "best" policy of all religions... when they don't even have a set protocol, other than "meet with the accused, and accuser separately, then meet with them together." While every one of the church policies cited, (except Watchtower,) requires mandatory reporting and background checks for all leaders. Most churches also have leader training and seminars on how to properly and legally handle these matters, whereas JW "training" is a 2 minute sidenote paragraph at elder's school once every few years. Disgusting.
You also have the nerve to write in your blog, and come on here and tell us that nearly all of the incidents that happened to us personally that contradict the woefully inadequate "policy" of the WT are really just lies, distorted personal experiences or faulty memory. Fine, I'll add my faulty memory to the mix: Being threatened with judicial action by one of the fine Elders for warning a sister that the brother who was being so friendly with holding her 4 y.o. daughter on his lap and taking her to bathroom was a convicted child rapist. She was horrified that nobody had told her. Yet the elders were more concerned that I do not spread "gossip." How is it gossip when he raped my friend and tried to fondle me?
But that's just one more "lie" and "distorted" personal experience for you to discount.
It people like you that make "Jehovah's" organization stinking, and rottenous down to its core. People who defend an organization who hides the most vile, revolting people in the corners and says it is doing what is right. People who think it's okay for not one, not two, or even three molestors to be acceptable association in my home congregation, but FOUR. Four "known" child molestors in my home congregation. One of them is the father of a poster here. That poster tells me that the elders were informed directly of this molestor. Yet no parent was ever warned of yet another child rapist in their midst.
GREAT policy. Yet that will never convince people like you with your blogs, who are so convinced that you have the "truth," that you can never see the filth and destruction you wallow in, all the while screeching to anyone who will listen how "RIGHT" your perverted policies are and how much you are "protected."
The only thing you are protected from is the hot sun of truth beating on the sand that covers your buried head.

17

"What congregation do you attend?"

by Odrade in

jw
friends

heehee, forgot my post.

Odrade

LMAO @ Gumbrawl's answer... I'm gonna have to hunt down some Dubs so I can use it on 'em. *devilish grin*