FHN and AndDontCallmeShirley: watch the first 4:40 of the video i posted on the previous page. 7% is referring to ELITE scientists, not all scientists. Also it's not the exact percent that matters so much as it is the concept of whose arguing with who. NDT says it best.
sunny23
JoinedPosts by sunny23
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152
HOW TO AVOID THE A-HOLE SPIRIT OF SOME HERE...
by DATA-DOG in1) take meds for your megalomania and delusions of grandeur.. .
suggestions welcome.. .
dd.
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152
HOW TO AVOID THE A-HOLE SPIRIT OF SOME HERE...
by DATA-DOG in1) take meds for your megalomania and delusions of grandeur.. .
suggestions welcome.. .
dd.
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sunny23
What does Mr Astrophysicits Tyson have to say about this? How many scientists are theists vs degrees in education.
Interesting watch, if you would like to see the entire 1.5hr speech it is linked in the descption of this clip but concerning this topic you only need to watch the first 5 min....
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
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sunny23
So God puts humans on earth. Wants them to become more like him therefore he imposes physical suffering. You deny that he caused the earth to be faulty (pun intended) and yet you believe he has the power to stop Tsunamis. Do you not believe in the bible at all? Genesis gives God's purpose to mankind to fill the earth and live forever. Even Jesus references to God creating the first male and female in Mathew ch 19. He makes several other references to the OT. Do just cherry pick what you like from the bible?
what's the point in wanting mankind to live on earth forever without suffering only to then kick them out when they rebel out of trying to be more like you (as eating magic apples can do) so they can suffer hundreds of generations in order to become more like you?
Also, in order for your theory to work it means that in the after life the souls would need to remember all of their suffering in order for their character to have developed to be more like God. That's worse than the scientist magic pill analogy.
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
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sunny23
I might be misinterpreting your overall message by the way you worded a few phrases. If so I'm sorry. I have posted the analogy this page and last
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
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sunny23
Sunny, I stated already that I DO NOT agree with the "end justifies the means", never have and probably never will.
but you said previously...
but the one that I tend to lean towards is that suffering is crucial to the development of humans as beings who will eventually "be like god". -Ps
So then suffering is the means, and to become "like God" is the end that justifies it? Do you no longer believe this as of 3hours ago?
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
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sunny23
I've studied buddhism as well including a class tought by Robert Wright from Princeton online along with my own studies. I enjoy it a lot, specifically the scripture-free zen aspects.
I'm most concerned with how you would judge a scientist in the aboze stated analogy.
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
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sunny23
Buddhism strives for non-suffering. Buddhism defines suffering differently than most people would, it includes even desire for things you dont have as suffering. I don't feel that to be suffering in the sense that we are concerned about in this thread which is physical pain leading to death and thus the emotional lasting torment of survivors.
Ps..
I was only infering from YOUR implications. If i'm wrong in what I assume about your implications or if Im wrong in the analogies then please correct me! I mean no offense. I was referring to this underlined part as it seemed to fit with exactly what you said...
7. Answers that trivialise the reality of human suffering
For example..
Suffering will be unimportant compared to eternal rewardsRational Response
This is ethically repugnant. Suffering is not reducible to arithmetic. This life really matters. Any philosophy that minimises the importance of physical human life is dangerous. It is the same mentality that leads to religious extremism and flies aeorplanes into tall buildings.It is an extreme example of "the end justifies the means" defence, so beloved of tyrants.
Like other theodicies it is dehumanising by reducing humans to pawns in god's game.
Imagine that scientists developed a pill that would eradicate all unwelcome memories and create a feeling of bliss. How would you judge a scientist who imposed the most horrific suffering on millions of people, as unwilling subjects of his experiment, but who offered some of his victims of the magic pills when it was over?
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
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sunny23
I don't know wheich positions have been rehashed here, but the one that I tend to lean towards is that suffering is crucial to the development of humans as beings who will eventually "be like god". -Ps
This statement means that Jesus wasn't "like God" until he suffered his agonizing death. This statment also means that angels in heaven are not "like God" because they have not suffered. In Genesis God said "Look, man has become like one of us." Also didn't Jesus say "If you have seen me, you have seen the father?"
I think you want to imply "discomfort" instead of "suffering." When I think of suffering I think of things that will cause lasting physical and/or mental damage to a person. Anything less than that would just be "discomfort" in my opinion. If you believe that actual suffering is crucial to all people then please do NOT have kids!
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
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sunny23
Psacramento you obviously havn't read most of this thread! You are wasting peoples time and energy by bringing up things that have already been brought up several times before. I believe if it weren't for re-hashing the same topics that this thread would be 60 pages easily.
Answer this Sacrament: Do you think God is/was capable of creating a planet that will sustain life and not be hostile to humans (like earthquake causing tsunamis)? Do you think he has the power to stop a tsunami or to "put it in peoples hearts" to steer clear of danger zones so noone ever got hurt by natural disaster ever? Of course you do. Yet the argument you make saying "God doesn't see death and suffering like we do, He knows it is simply a small stage in our development and that NOT physical death is a true death, but simply a state of change of our material form, one the leads to a far greater "evolution" of man, with far greater rewards, more than we can even contemplate at this time." This DOESNT make it OK!! Consider this analogy and please read it at least 90 times over..
Like other theodicies it is dehumanising by reducing humans to pawns in god's game.
Imagine that scientists developed a pill that would eradicate all unwelcome memories and create a feeling of bliss. How would you judge a scientist who imposed the most horrific suffering on millions of people, as unwilling subjects of his experiment, but who offered some of his favorite victims the magic pills when it was over?
You said this Psacramento, "humans tend to be at their best when they show compassion and what is compassion?
To suffer with others." That sounds like something Hitler would have said concerning the millions of Jews he had murdered. Hitler taught them a sh** ton of compassion right? right?
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Mathew 5:43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor i and hate your enemy.’ But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect. " This is the type of love the bible claims God has! It sure looks like he took off his "love hat" for thousands of years right?
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Whatever reason we give to excuse god's inaction must work if we were to present it to the lady in the photograph below. If we would be embarassed to say it to her then it is probably Ivory Tower bullshit and we should think again.
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2596
The Pastor of my Old Church Tried to Re-Convert Me Yesterday
by cofty inyesterday evening my wife and i were invited to friends house for new year's eve.
we met them when i was a christian and we have kept in touch.
they had a few other friends there as well, including the new church pastor and his wife.
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sunny23
Having been 7 months since i first posted on the first page of this topic I have just read those posts and acknowledged a huge transfromation in myself for the better. How naieve I was! I feel inclined to apologize for my lack of mental creativity to think in a more moral perspective but I won't. I still held a JW bias. In fact I will thank Cofty and all others who contributed for and against his initial claims for helping me and others to grow! :) This is why I joined.
I especially am gratefull for the part where I tried to defend the "paradise is the ultimate goal" theory to downplay suffering and up-play rewards and Cofty developed Theodicy #15 after posing the question, " To be clear the question that has to be addressed is "does the promise of eternal life make suffering morally right?"
I really thought I had it figured out. Even when #15 was made I read it over and over and still disagreed with it, but couldn't come up with anything solid enough to post confidently in rebuttle. I remember typing up long winded posts only to delete them after proof-reading only to find out it was totally useless or morally unacceptable.
Re-reading much of this thread now after 7 months of spiritual self introspection and research I find this whole thread (especially the fformative pages leading to 74) essential to those who are truly open minded enough and in search of the "truth."
15. Suffering will be unimportant compared to eternal rewards
Response - This is ethically repugnant. It is an extreme example of "the end justifies the means" defense, so beloved of tyrants.
Like other theodices it is dehumanising by reducing humans to pawns in god's game.
Imagine that scientists developed a pill that would eradicate all unwelcome memories and create a feeling of bliss.
How would you judge a scientist who imposed the most horrific suffering on millions of people, as unwilling subjects of his experiment, but who gave all of them one of the magic pills when it was over?
