Posts by sunny23

49

Faith - Virtue or Vice?

by nicolaou in

faith gives you permission to believe that jesus actually did feed thousands with a few loaves & fishes, walk on water and rise from the grave.

all the evidence proves that none of this happened so why persist with faith?

why be dishonest with yourself?

sunny23

In the large "pastor" thread Cofty started, I quoted another member and then made the statment:

Psac: "Because I can feel Him in my bones."

Sunny23: "Or perhaps its your subliminal fear of not having life after death resonating within you? Like Cofty said, many other religious people feel the same way you do towards a God you believe to be false (any God but yours). If one were to invent a new absurd and bogus made-up religion in North Korea, eventually everyone there would believe it and feel it in their bones too :)"

And then I got this response:

"Yes, and perhaps because of fear of losing the meaning of life in general. Take away God, that Love and Power and Grace (as they say) that is greater than us, and all life and meaning (for me) goes away. Evolution takes over - that we are just accidents that came through in time out of nothing, and a race of species that will disappear in time, meaninglessly - that all that is in the universe will grow into increasing disorder and then into nothingness - as law of entropy, that all of this shit is just a waste of time. Suffering has been discussed extensively in this thread - the picture of that asian mother with her dead daughter in hand brandishedly brought up from time to time to bring home the point. And we all have our own personal sufferings that we endure and go through each day. To go through all that, endure it, and burn in its fire, and then to find out that all is meaningless anyway, I would immediately end my life to save me all further trouble. After all, I am just an accident and nothing in all this universe has meaning."kassad84

I know personally as a young JW I used to think the same way. As soon as I would begin doubting the existence of God I would start contemplating the idea of dying without an afterlife and the fear of the unknown and abstract concept of eternal unconsciousness for some reason scared the sh** outta me so I would look up at the stars and convince myself there had to be a God, and I would apologize for that moment of doubt (to make sure I stayed on his good side haha). I think that people refuse to deny their faith or they choose to have faith on the foundation of fear of the unknown coupled with the delusion that "without a God and afterlife there is NO purpose to anything." It's sad to see people say that they would rather kill themselves if life was an "accident" and there was no afterlife when atheists actually feel quite the contrary, that life and well-being is the most important thing of all because it is limited!

Sam Harris adresses this concept well:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qxkqz7-DmsE

109

Topics Ive Been Pondering On

by JWINQUESTION in

this is my first post on here so bear with me.

currently i am still an active jw with serious questions about the jw org.

i was hesitant signing up but really need as much input from the people on this forum to get a clear understanding on things.

sunny23

"After reading the comments, I can basically pursue anything that would make me personally happy?

What if a person found happiness and joy in murdering people or if a school bully found happiness in beating kids people up? Or terrorist found happiness and joy in driving planes through tall buildings? Would it be correct for them to pursue those things?"

Psycopathy is a clinical condition/abnormality and can be identified biologically in most cases. The overall well-being of humans is the most important and those who counteract that need to be treated or locked up. To find joy in killing people is to lack empathy and biologically normal humans do not typically lack empathy so no, it would not be "correct" for psychopaths to kill to make themselves happy.

When it's told to you to "basically pursue anything that would make you personally happy," its under the assumption that you are a biologically and mentally normal/stable human being and not a psychopath or sociopath.

20

I need some help

by RedRightHand in

jw
friends

for purely informational purposes, i am planning a visit to a local kingdom hall.

it has been years since i've set foot in one and i need to know what the current terminology is so i don't stick out like a sore thumb.

what are the studying?

sunny23

"For purely informational purposes"

Do you plan on asking elders questions before or after the meeting? What kind of information are you trying to seek? If you are going to sunday meeting then the talk won't be much different than any of the ideas conveyed in talks youve presumably heard before. The study article is going to be one of about 15 different topics relating the bible to the world. If you are going to theocratic school then the methods of preaching might be changed a bit to accomodate the JW.org website they are heavily promoting but thats about it. Most "information" can be found on the JW.org website as it contains the entire watchtower library updated including their newest revised 2013 bible that has re-worded and even taken entire chunks of scripture out! However I suggest other topics on this forum and jwfacts.com for accurate information.

17

Radiocarbon dating totaly inaccurate before 2000 BCE

by opusdei1972 in

it seems that this portion was published in the watchtower in the year 1977 (as i have in the spanish version):.

the radiocarbon dating method has been widely accepted by many scientists as showing that humans lived back to at least 50,000 b.c.e.

that conflicts with what the bible says.. but physicist r. brown of andrews university claims that this radiocarbon dating method is highly inaccurate.

sunny23

It's laughable how they try and criticize scientific method to hold onto ancient man-written scripts.

This is from the Insight book:

"Differences in dating. It is important to realize this when considering the dates offered by archaeologists with regard to their finds. Illustrating this, Merrill F. Unger says: “For example, Garstang dates the fall of Jericho c. 1400 B.C. . . . ; Albright subscribes to the date c. 1290 B.C. . . . ; Hugues Vincent, the celebrated Palestinian archeologist, holds to the date 1250 B.C. . . . ; while H. H. Rowley views Rameses II as the Pharaoh of the Oppression, and the Exodus as having taken place under his successor Marniptah [Merneptah] about 1225 B.C.” (Archaeology and the Old Testament, p. 164, ftn. 15) While arguing on behalf of the reliability of modern archaeological process and analysis, Professor Albright acknowledges that “it is still very difficult for the non-specialist to pick his way among the conflicting dates and conclusions of archaeologists.”—The Archaeology of Palestine, p. 253.

It is true that the radiocarbon clock has been employed, along with other modern methods, for dating the artifacts found. However, that this method is not completely accurate is evidenced in the following statement by G. Ernest Wright in TheBiblicalArchaeologist (1955, p. 46): “It may be noted that the new Carbon 14 method of dating ancient remains has not turned out to be as free from error as had been hoped. . . . Certain runs have produced obviously wrong results, probably for a number of reasons. At the moment, one can depend upon the results without question only when several runs have been made which give virtually identical results and when the date seemscorrectfromothermethodsofcomputation [italics ours].” More recently, TheNewEncyclopædiaBritannica (Macropædia, 1976, Vol. 5, p. 508) stated: “Whatever the cause, . . . it is clear that carbon -14 dates lack the accuracy that traditional historians would like to have.”—See CHRONOLOGY (Archaeological Dating )."

However when it comes to confirming beliefs and dates the WTorg is quick to use carbon dating when it backs them up! From watchtower 09 5/1 p27:

"Did King Hezekiah really build a tunnel into Jerusalem?

Dr. Amos Frumkin of the Hebrew University of Jerusalem says: “The carbon -14 tests we carried out on organic material within the plaster of the Siloam Tunnel, and uranium-thorium dating of stalactites found in the tunnel, date it conclusively to Hezekiah’s era.” An article in the scientific journal Nature adds: “The three independent lines of evidence—radiometric dating , palaeography and the historical record—all converge on about 700 BC, rendering the Siloam Tunnel the best-dated Iron-Age biblical structure thus far known.”

ALSO: from Awake 08 2/8 p19-22

Dating the Dead Sea Scroll of Isaiah

The first Dead Sea Scroll of the Bible book of Isaiah, discovered in 1947, was written on leather in a pre-Masoretic Hebrew script. It has been dated to the end of the second century B.C.E. How did scholars arrive at that date? They compared the writing with other Hebrew texts and inscriptions and assigned it a paleographic date between 125 B.C.E. and 100 B.C.E. Carbon -14 dating of the scroll provided additional evidence.

109

Topics Ive Been Pondering On

by JWINQUESTION in

this is my first post on here so bear with me.

currently i am still an active jw with serious questions about the jw org.

i was hesitant signing up but really need as much input from the people on this forum to get a clear understanding on things.

sunny23

Welcome JWINQUESTION:

I'm 27 and finished college at 23 but miss it and wouldn't mind going back for degrees in things that actually interest me. You are never too old! More than half of my graduating class were over age 30. Anyway, some background, I was a JW from 3rd grade unitl age 24 when I stopped attending after New Light about the "generation." The reasoning they had for New Light didn't make logical sense to me. I had already been questioning the logic surrounding the non-acceptance of blood transfusions. I decided exactly like you that if it's the Truth, then it can withstand ANY scrutiny! I took a year off to research specific JW doctrine and what I concluded about blood, 1914, 1975, etc convinced me not to waste any more precious time with the organization.

Keep asking questions and seeking answers! Belief sytems play a large role in your psyche and subsequently your actions and decisions for the rest of your life. If you have never truly scrutinized your belief systems and have only blindly gone with the wind with them, then you might live the rest of your life fully formed by an organization you don't want to bother questioning. Never stop seeking knowledge. In fact I advise you to take a Technical Communications course in college and pay attention to Logical Fallacies. You will be able to critically analyze each paragraph in a Watchtower mag and see how often they commit these fallacies!

Also as a side note regarding homosexuality: Homosexuality has been observed in the animal kingdom across hundreds of different species and even in long-term homosexual bonds between two mammals that lasts their entire life-time! It is a byproduct of creation/evolution/natural selection/whatever you want to call it. How could a God condemn the actions of the animals/humans he created when he instills these behaviors? Also combine the points made previously about STD's between straight people, and the points about pro-creation not being of any concern or necessity in even married JW couples.

Cheers

22

Spirituality is innate!

by Pinku in

on seeing the horrifying scene of world trade centre being attacked and knowing the pain of those trapped in and their loved ones, not only in new york but across the world millions of people turned into silence, prayer, and meditation.

they gathered on the streets, lit candles, wrote condolence, anything to feel solidarity and to spread a wave of love.

churches, temples, mosques and retreat centers were flooded with people seeking to raise their consciousness beyond the senseless killing to a higher, more noble plane.

sunny23

nicolaou, a quote from Sam Harris's book I linked above concerning a sceptical and objective approach to "spirituality"...

"Before going any further, I should address the animosity that many readers feel toward the term spiritual. Whenever I use the word, as in referring to meditation as a “spiritual practice,” I hear from fellow skeptics and atheists who think that I have committed a grievous error.
The word spirit comes from the Latin spiritus, which is a translation of the Greek pneuma, meaning “breath.” Around the thirteenth century, the term became entangled with beliefs about immaterial souls, supernatural beings, ghosts, and so forth. It acquired other meanings as well: We speak of the spirit of a thing as its most essential principle or of certain volatile substances and liquors as spirits. Nevertheless, many nonbelievers now consider all things “spiritual” to be contaminated by medieval superstition.

I do not share their semantic concerns. [1] Yes, to walk the aisles of any “spiritual” bookstore is to confront the yearning and credulity of our species by the yard, but there is no other term—apart from the even more problematic mystical or the more restrictive contemplative—with which to discuss the efforts people make, through meditation, psychedelics, or other means, to fully bring their minds into the present or to induce nonordinary states of consciousness. And no other word links this spectrum of experience to our ethical lives.

Throughout this book, I discuss certain classically spiritual phenomena, concepts, and practices in the context of our modern understanding of the human mind—and I cannot do this while restricting myself to the terminology of ordinary experience. So I will use spiritual, mystical, contemplative, and transcendent without further apology. However, I will be precise in describing the experiences and methods that merit these terms.

For many years, I have been a vocal critic of religion, and I won’t ride the same hobbyhorse here. I hope that I have been sufficiently energetic on this front that even my most skeptical readers will trust that my bullshit detector remains well calibrated as we advance over this new terrain. Perhaps the following assurance can suffice for the moment: Nothing in this book needs to be accepted on faith. Although my focus is on human subjectivity—I am, after all, talking about the nature of experience itself—all my assertions can be tested in the laboratory of your own life. In fact, my goal is to encourage you to do just that." http://www.samharris.org/blog/item/chapter-one

22

Spirituality is innate!

by Pinku in

on seeing the horrifying scene of world trade centre being attacked and knowing the pain of those trapped in and their loved ones, not only in new york but across the world millions of people turned into silence, prayer, and meditation.

they gathered on the streets, lit candles, wrote condolence, anything to feel solidarity and to spread a wave of love.

churches, temples, mosques and retreat centers were flooded with people seeking to raise their consciousness beyond the senseless killing to a higher, more noble plane.

sunny23

Xchange "Traditionally spirituality has been defined as a process of personal transformation in accordance with religious ideals. Since the 19th century spirituality is often separated from religion, and has become more oriented on subjective experience and psychological growth. It may refer to almost any kind of meaningful activity or blissful experience."

This is the next book I will be starting, I hear great things about it. It's from an atheist neuroscientist on spirituality without religion. You probably already know of Harris though. http://www.samharris.org/waking-up

7

The best Parable I have ever heard!

by Pinku in

nothing good exists outside jw world is the general thinking among jws.

if they read the heart of the enlightened (written by anthony de mello), they would probably feel how wrong they were!

story goes like this: there once lived a godly man.

sunny23

He equally nourishes the good and the bad through the life-support systems He has put in place on the earth without giving the impression that He is behind, and is not at all bothered about the praise or ridicule people shower on Him.—Mathew 5:44-48

Wait, God does what? I'm confused. What are you saying exactly about God's personality? Which God? Only the one in the new testament right, not the old testament one?

I do agree though that JWs are easily outshined in certain areas when compared to the parables or ideas of others like you pointed out. I bounced to a few dif non-denominational churches after I left the WT and noticed several "more ideal" perspectives on the bible. Eventually saw through them as well.

40

Reflections on 1 year WT Free-breaking the chains...

by MissFit in

hi everyone.. i just realized that it has been over a year since i discovered this site and started to recognize i was shackled by invisible chains.

i am still in the process of chipping away on those chains.. i posted on another thread how these threads here are like little time capsules.

the moment, the emotions, the attitudes are all there frozen.. .

sunny23

I haven't been to a meeting in 2.5yrs but didn't start working hard to determine if Chrsitianity was something worthy of my attention for the rest of my life until I sat down and seriously put it to the test which only happened on smal scales here and there until Cofty's thread, you know the one Miss Fit. After a few weeks of that and pondering on my own I have noticed huge changes to my persona for the better as well

"There were things I didn't even know that I didn't know. For example logical fallacies"

I learned about those and other technical writting aspects in college in 2006 and from that point on spent 6 years questioning certain arguments and fallacies I would notice in JW literature, the first being the anology: "If your doctor told you not to drink alcohol anymore because it was detrimental to your health and might cause eventual death, then surely you wouldn't inject it into your veins would you? The same is true of God and blood." I remember actually agreeing with that faulty logic when I was younger until I went to college that is..However it took me 6 years before I really started to chip away at the core doctrines. Glad I did it when I did though and not 20+ years later. I feel I have chipped away enough over the last year especialy, to feel comfortable about my new "non-belief system" however it's still intriguing to find new ways to refute claims that I used to use way back when or even new claims I have never been aware of.

38

Reverse Shunning

by exwhyzee in

someting happened yesterday that i thought might be noteworty enough to relate to you here.. mrs. eyz and i were invited to my new boss's home for his annual end of summer party.

it's a pretty big deal....his is a name known locally (i'll call him j.r.) a really nice interesting guy who's held a number of high level and politically connected jobs.

there was to be music, dancing, wine and reprotedly lots of well dressed, well educated, well to do and influential people (oh yes...and us) in attendance.. anyway we thought we'd make an occasion out of it and got ourselves spiffed up which involved new outfits and extra mirror time before we left home.

sunny23

I like it! I'm still trying to figure out how to act around JW's who recognize me. Depends on who it is and my mood as to what I say to them if anything at all. I've stopped trying to avoid them. The ones who smile and say Hi I don't mind, it's the ones who are at my place of work or at the store who make eye contact and then give a cold shoulder that I sometimes like to go up to and see how much they will converse before it becomes me talking at them about the weather or recent events or they walk away.