Posts by sunny23

20

Angelo Catanzaro

by Room 215 in

jw
friends

i recently heard angelo catanzaro, a rather prominent figure in the organization .. a long-time district overseer and a favorite of knorr's, died recently.

there was some indication that he and his wife figured out ttatt in their latter years and turned "apostate"... .

does anyone out there know what happened to them?

Jonathan (wife Kathy) Catanzaro, was our CO in indiana around 2004 give or take a year, and then he moved to florida, we helped him move his stuff personally, and we eventually moved to florida and he was my CO in central florida around 2010. Never met angelo

754

Theists, why does God allow suffering..

by The Quiet One in

..specifically, the suffering of animals.

you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

sunny23

How would you feel:

About a scientist who designed a magic pill that made you forget all your pain and problems and gave you a feeling of tremendous bliss. He then proceeds to allow pain and suffering of a large group of people, even babies, though he could stop it at any time, he even inflicts pain at times yet gives his favorite people this magic pill later when he feels like it. How would you view this man?

Good times will replace the bad times? If thats how God thinks when he looks down on earth to see 200,000 years of human suffering and pain then...f*** him. What a loving parent right? Who wants to worship that monster?

89

Richard Dawkins talking about a Creator

by FusionTheism in

richard dawkins admitted that information inside of dna, and the origin of life on earth, might point to intelligent designers, perhaps extraterrestrials.

(see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=boncjbrrdq8 )richard dawkins further admitted, in a debate with francis collins for time magazine, that science might point to a creator existing, but that this creator might not be anything like yahweh:.

time: "could the answer be god?

sunny23

FusionTheism - "This refutes those atheists who say anyone who believes in a Creator is STUPID or an IDIOT."

FT, are you implying that Richard Dawkins believes in a Cerator, Richard Dawkins is not stupid, therefore it refutes atheists who say that 'anyone who believes in a creator is stupid'?

If so you haven't proven that Richard Dawkins believes in a creator. Is allowing a 0.001% chance of possibility for a 'thing' the exact same as believing that 'thing' positively exists???

111

"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty in

the children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.

he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.

if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.

sunny23

Hypothetically:

Lets say its discovered that this racist kid had a large tumor on his brain giving him a severe lack of empathy and increased aggression. He also was heavily indoctrinated by others to have the world view that he has. He also has severe chemical imbalances that are measured and quantified that can explain his sociopathic tendencies. Lets add in that he was threatened by a racist group leader into doing this act as well. He was also abused by African Americans much of his childhood in various forms. He is also mentally handicapped.

He still needs to be treated and locked up to protect society but would forgiveness on the part of victims families be more acceptable in this scenario? People need to be held accountable for their actions but can they still be forgiven? I think some here are implying that forgiveness must always include a suspension of accountability and justice. Perhaps its that forgiveness has no place in a court room and only in the "hearts" of those effected.

I don't believe that the forgiveness that the kids said they had for this murderer = they want the murder to roam the streets than to be in prison. I think their world view of sin, satanic influence, potential future repentance, salvation, and divine justice in an afterlife as well as a dash of faked public piety are what lend to a different definition of a type of human-to-human unconditional forgiveness these kids and other Christians might sometimes have. In that sense, yes their idea of forgiveness is not similar to ours.

111

"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty in

the children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.

he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.

if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.

sunny23

A "christian could" do anything. By what are we basing christian actions? Just modern day new testament /new covenant christians? If so then technicall a Christian should allow "cesar" to uphold law and justice for society, but allow God to exact punishment in some other sense and means.

111

"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty in

the children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.

he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.

if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.

sunny23

Old Testament style? Yea sure.

111

"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty in

the children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.

he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.

if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.

sunny23

Since forgiveness has different meanings, you technically could forgive someone (not be angry at them emotionally) while punishing them, or sentencing them to prison/death. The same Justice can be served by someone exhibiting emotions and by someone not.

As far as the hypothetical question of what would the forgiving Christians do if given the reigns of judicial power? Who cares, lets hope their ideologies are not too strong in those who actually decide these cases and justice is served fully here.

111

"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty in

the children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.

he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.

if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.

sunny23

Justice comes from a blindfolded woman holding scales, by definition she can not forgive, she only treats those who act fairly according to action. She is objective, forgiveness is subjective because it concerns emotion. Unless you are forgiving a debt.

111

"We Already Forgive Him" - What Does That Mean?

by cofty in

the children of one of yesterday's shooting have told the media that they have already forgiven the killer for what he did.. dylaan roof has not apologised for what he did.

he hates black people and probably regrets not killing even more.. what does it really mean to forgive?.

if the legal system asked the victims relatives what they want done next would they ask for dylaan to go free and unpunished?.

sunny23

I think they mean to forgive him in an emotional sense and not a physical/social/judiciary sense. Or that the forgiveness is of the "spirit relm" where they toss all their cares and concerns, you know, up to the sky with God so they don't actually have to think about shit.

If someone hits my car and apologizes but the damages are high, I might forgive them for their mistake at that moment once we have talked things out but I would still expect them or their insurance to pay for my car. Does this mean I haven't forgiven their action? hmm

To forgive can mean to stop feeling angry OR it can mean to cancel a debt. It's not always both meanings simultaneously.

Faith is Mandatory?

by sunny23 in

faith by definition when applied to god is: belief in him without proof or evidence of "things seen.

can you be saved by god or at armageddon if you do not have faith, or if you doubt god exists?

according to jw's and most christians that is a big fat no!

sunny23

Faith by definition when applied to God is: belief in Him without proof or evidence of "things seen."

Can you be saved by God or at Armageddon if you do not have faith, or If you doubt God exists? According to JW's and most Christians that is a big fat NO! Lets chip in some analogies to illustrate the ridiculousness of this ideology for a minute.

Imagine back before phones and internet. A soon-to-be father is wrongfully convicted of a crime and sent to an offshore prison for a 30year sentence. His son is born soon after and is raised by his mother to believe that his father is alive and well and will be returning in the near future. This father communicates to his son for 20+ years by letter only and never receives or responds to his sons letters. There are no pictures, old clothes, or other physical evidence of this father for the child to see. Only these letters. In these letters the father emphasizes to his son among other life lessons and 'rules,' that if the son does not believe that his father exists and will return, then when he does return, the father will find and kill his son for non-belief. Of course the son believes out of fear for a while but eventually grows older and reasons that these letters may be coming from his mother or another relative in some attempt to raise him with a father figure this whole time. Thus the son stops believing its really from his father. At age 30 the son gets his throat slit by his returned father for not believing he existed this whole time. Justice has been served, right? Do you believe Jesus/God exists? Is it really necessary to? Wheres the evidence? Is it in some old letters?

I also like the Firefighter analogy in this short cartoon clip: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSZqH0Ms4ds