Viviane

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Posts by Viviane

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  754

  Theists, why does God allow suffering..

  by The Quiet One in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  ..specifically, the suffering of animals.

  you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

  i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

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  Viviane

  Although to design, someone must act as designer.

  To say "the design of animal" is not implying a designer.

  The deeper I study the biology of the human body, it becomes relatively clear that this did not happen by chance.

  Evolution isn't "by chance".

  The DNS RNA structure and programming clearly demonstrated a well-engineered model for cellular proliferation.

  How so?

  That said, I have also studded evolution and can see where within species, or as one species takes president over another, or when adaptation to survive in a changing environment is required that this is great example of programed engineering at the highest level.

  What, specifically, are you thinking is programmed engineering by a designer?
  

  The Big-bang, theory has relevance too for the creationist. We do it all the time when we use high explosives to start nuclear fission. So why couldn’t the universal engineer set up the physics, time, etc, to create and perpetuate matter into existence and start the underlying processes to develop what we know as the universe?

  
  Sure. But... there is zero evidence for it.
  
  
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  102

  A couple questions for atheists on Suffering

  by little_Socrates in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  who told you that the world should be free from suffering?.

  do you find any value in suffering?.

  do you think it is possible to experience all the beauty and goodness and pleasure the world offers without also experiencing the bad?

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  Viviane

  In and of itself that is a pretty horrible event. However when taken as a whole with the whole human condition it doesn't make the world an evil place.

  No one said it did. But, you said the ENTIRE human experience was beautiful. You are calling that beautiful. You are calling the deaths from the tsunami beautiful. You are calling every miscarriage beautiful. You are calling every death of a child beautiful.

  Even if your argument is that it averages out, you would be arguing that it's OK to give you poison, making you sick because it averages out. Do you really want to start decided and comparing a child being raped and saying it's OK because someone else had a nice day?

  Sickening.
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  754

  Theists, why does God allow suffering..

  by The Quiet One in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  ..specifically, the suffering of animals.

  you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

  i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

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  Viviane

  If you do not believe that God exists, you should not even be here. This is not for you.This is for theists. This discussion is moot for you. And if that is the case then the question asked on this thread is a rhetorical one, trying to show that God does not exist because he allows evil.

  How else will theists know when their arguments are irrational without someone to point them out?

  Then you have just answered your own conundrum from creation to evolution. Both views are arbitrary.

  Evolution is evidence based and has multiple lines of evidence, predictive power and underpins modern biology and medicine.

  Creationism has zero evidence.
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  102

  A couple questions for atheists on Suffering

  by little_Socrates in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  who told you that the world should be free from suffering?.

  do you find any value in suffering?.

  do you think it is possible to experience all the beauty and goodness and pleasure the world offers without also experiencing the bad?

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  Viviane

  My point about the victims you mentioned... even though they died tragically, it doesn't negate all the great things they experienced in life.

  No, it doesn't, but if there is a creator God, then he is either a sh*tty creator or doesn't love his creation enough to give them a safe home.

  Would you be fine if someone decided to crush each of your fingers with a hammer? After all, it doesn't negate the lovely dinner you had last night.

  when atheists say "Why does God allow suffering" how do they define it? That is the definition I want to work towards.

  Why would an atheist ask that? They don't believe in God, by definition. I think when you see that, it's a hypothetical as part of a conversation where the existence of God is assumed for the sake of conversation and there is someone, usually, a Christian, trying to say God is perfectly loving, omniscient and omnipotent.
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  102

  A couple questions for atheists on Suffering

  by little_Socrates in

  1. watchtower
  2. beliefs

  who told you that the world should be free from suffering?.

  do you find any value in suffering?.

  do you think it is possible to experience all the beauty and goodness and pleasure the world offers without also experiencing the bad?

  1. 
  2. 
  3. 
• 

  Viviane

  Who told you that the world should be free from suffering?

  No one. Why?

  Do you find any value in suffering?

  Exercise, while painful, is gainful. It's also self-imposed.

  I am just trying to understand the atheist argument on suffering. It seems they like to hammer on certain preconceived ideas that theists bring to the table. I am just trying to turn it around and see if I can get atheists to defend and explain their positions. Usually theists are the ones that always have to defend themselves

  That's been done dozens of times. In fact, Cofty had a thread over 100 pages long on it. Theists were unable to come up with rational answer for why a loving god would create a universe so excellently suiting to killing and harming it's inhabitants.

  The entire human experience is beautiful.

  A child being kidnapped, raped and murdered is beautiful? What a sickening notion.
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  754

  Theists, why does God allow suffering..

  by The Quiet One in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  ..specifically, the suffering of animals.

  you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

  i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

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  Viviane

  1) I agree it may appear a fact based on physical evidence and the human understanding of that evidence. I am not a "blind-faith"er, I've looked at science, still rather enjoy it, actually.

  You've described someone with blind faith perfectly. You KNOW there is evidence contrary to your belief but choose to ignore it. How is that not blind faith?
• 
  754

  Theists, why does God allow suffering..

  by The Quiet One in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  ..specifically, the suffering of animals.

  you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

  i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

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  2. 
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  Viviane

  First, let me say that atheists are entitled to their view of facts and science. Tangible physical evidence is certainly a strong argument, but to forego any arguing on that point, I'll grant that there could have been an evolutionary process in conjunction with Bible doctrine.

  There is no such thing as an "atheist view" of facts and science. There are simply facts and science. Evolution is a fact beyond all reasonable doubt.

  I will ask those who are avid evolutionists to grant, for the sake of the current argument only, the possibility that God created the world in aged form because as a creator, that was His vision. I'm not asking for belief, simply establishing "neutralish ground" for the sake of addressing animal cruelty and sin from a Biblical standpoint and attempting to reconcile a loving God in all of this.

  That is certainly possible, but it's not "neutral" because all, literally ALL of evidence points against that.

  The illness is contained so it doesn't spread beyond the quarantine area, but it would be awful to destroy everyone because they were exposed to the disease. And the results often bring about immunities. And, because this is a "theist" point of view, I'll go out on a limb and argue that God didn't wipe them out because He wanted them to have that right to choose, and still establish that immunization against any other "disease" of the type.

  That argument doesn't hold water. According to your holy book we are all already sick, infected, diseased, and there is a doctor who can heal us, but only if we grovel and pay with blood and look the other way while he murders millions with no discretion.
  
  
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  754

  Theists, why does God allow suffering..

  by The Quiet One in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  ..specifically, the suffering of animals.

  you can talk about free will/sin/people choosing to not listen to god etc to explain human suffering being allowed.. but how can you love a god that allows animals, that haven't sinned or chosen to not have anything to do with god, to have their short lives ended in often long, drawn out, painful ways.

  i could list stories i've read that would probably make you feel ill, but i'm not looking to shock anyone or start an emotional debate.

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  Viviane

  When thinking for an answer one can feel hopeless and defeated and helpless. I try not to think about this because it is very painful.

  Closing your eyes doesn't make it go away. You're experience the pain of attempting to reconcile what you clearly know to be bad with the concept of woshipping a god you've been told is love is clearly a blood god of death.

  One tries to find some reason some justification but it cannot be done. One way to view this is: God knows and who am I to judge God.

  That's not a way to view it. That's a way to avoid having to think about the obvious and irrefutable contradiction. It's called cognitive dissonance.
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  24

  Education, education, education....

  by snare&racket in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  an update on my life post education..... as the governing body continue to denounce higher education, reality continues to prove their words ignorant, ill informed and blatant lies.

  i am proud and astonished to say i have just been accepted for a university teaching hospital post.

  i have a seriously sought after, senior house officer job in intensive care, endocrinology and clinical pharmacology.

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  Viviane

  That's a great story! Congratulations!
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  6

  Paranormal Witness

  by Clambake in

  1. watchtower
  2. scandals

  does anyone watch this show?

  it literally scares the hell of out of me..

  does anyone here have an interest in the paranormal, demonology , ghosts or general weird stuff.

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  Viviane

  I know this is totally against what Christianity teaches but I kind of gives me hope of something beyond the grave.

  Ghost and witches are in the Bible. Why do you worry about what happens after you die?