Eden, I should also add "what do you mean by absent" to the list. It can mean "exists but not here" or "not paying attention" or "non-existent". Any of those definitions is taking a position on the existence of God, unless you are meaning all of them, in which case there are already definitions for that.
Viviane
JoinedPosts by Viviane
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284
I'm an ABSENTHEIST. Are you also?
by EdenOne init just dawned on me.
the existence of god can't be proved, neither is there evidence of god's inexistence.
so, i'm neither theist neither atheist.
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284
I'm an ABSENTHEIST. Are you also?
by EdenOne init just dawned on me.
the existence of god can't be proved, neither is there evidence of god's inexistence.
so, i'm neither theist neither atheist.
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Viviane
This appears to be a sensible reasoning. But let me ask you this: A child of one year old who holds no belief that deities exist. Is that child atheist?
Yes, that child lacks a belief in any deity.
Because according to the simplistic definition that "atheism is a disbelief in deities", a child is atheist.
According to one dictionary that's one of many. Another is simply a lack of belief in deities, spirits, etc. They imply and mean different things.
It's not so simple. There must be something more to atheism than simply disbelief in deities.
There is, and you have been told that many times.
- I posit that the overtly rejection of deities on the premise that they don't exist should be called atheism.
- I posit that the disbelief in deities based on lack of objective evidence for their existence is skepticism.
- I posit that the inability to believe or disbelieve in deities based on the premise that they are unknowable isagnosticism.
Well, for starters, all of those things do mean that, but also more than and they all can mean variations on that. You are also missing a lot of similar but subtle variations on belief in deities or the spirit world. That's why, as I said previously, you often see people define the specific thing they are talking about when a word can have various meanings.
My proposition is that there is a fourth stand: That the only thing that can be said about deities is that they are absent, not present, from the known universe, thus leaving the questions of belief or disbelief, existence or non-existence, entirely open. This I coined absentheism but feel free to call it anything else if you come up with a more suitable term.
Define what you mean by absent, please, and how we know they aren't here. If a student is absent from class, that pre-supposes the student exists. If an item is absent from a drawer, say a fork, that supposes the fork exists. Your position isn't clear. Are you saying deities exist but removed from us? That's already a position that is defined. Are you saying they don't exist? Already defined. Are you saying it's unknowable? Already defined.
Your position is very muddy in that it's not at all clear what you are trying to say. How do we know they are absent unless someone defines the specific properties of a deity so we know to look for it? What gap in positions is absenteism filling?
However, you introduced another concept: functional atheist. That is, regardless of how your intellectual position towards deities is, your attitude in life is consistent with a belief that deities don't exist. This functional atheism is very much on the same domain of attitude of an apatheist, who "regards the question of the existence or non-existence of a god or gods to be essentially meaningless and irrelevant".
Apathy implies that I don't care. That's not my position at all.
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284
I'm an ABSENTHEIST. Are you also?
by EdenOne init just dawned on me.
the existence of god can't be proved, neither is there evidence of god's inexistence.
so, i'm neither theist neither atheist.
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Viviane
But ain't it funny how people demand definitions? Well, that's the place where they can be found. One can't demand definitions from an authority and then refuse said definition from said authority because it doesn't fit your model.
Sure you can, particularly when the definitions given have a ton of nuance not taken into account that don't accurately convey what is being discussed. That's why you often see people say things like "for purposes of this discussion, we are using the specific definition of 'x' to mean 'abc123'"
This is because, as MASH suggested, I use the label atheist to mean I live my life as if no deity exists. I can't know whether or not there is no deity, of course, but since I have no evidence that any exists, certainly not any that anyone has told me about, I live functionally as an atheist and indeed consider myself one. I simply lack the belief.
That is the type of subtle nuance not conveyed by MW dictionary with two short lines.
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284
I'm an ABSENTHEIST. Are you also?
by EdenOne init just dawned on me.
the existence of god can't be proved, neither is there evidence of god's inexistence.
so, i'm neither theist neither atheist.
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Viviane
I agree. But that wasn't my point. The use of "absent", as I've demonstrated by using a respected dictionary (and yet Cofty and others dare to claim they know better that Marriam-Webster) can adequately describe a state of non-presence
But you gave a definition for god that DOES presuppose existence when I asked. You also didn't tell me how I would know how to objectively determine whether or not we could tell if he was here.
However, I said that if someone had a better term to positively describe a state of not being present, without presuming existence or non-existence, I was listening.
There is 1) no evidence that deity or deities exist and 2) even if they do, that we have any measurable way to objectively determine the status of their presence in the universe. This position shall be called "makes-sense-ithsm".
Seriously, that took me like, one minute.
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284
I'm an ABSENTHEIST. Are you also?
by EdenOne init just dawned on me.
the existence of god can't be proved, neither is there evidence of god's inexistence.
so, i'm neither theist neither atheist.
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Viviane
So, again, has anyone bothered to define "god" so we can determine whether it is absent or not? -
284
I'm an ABSENTHEIST. Are you also?
by EdenOne init just dawned on me.
the existence of god can't be proved, neither is there evidence of god's inexistence.
so, i'm neither theist neither atheist.
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Viviane
Has anyone actually defined "god" so we could possibly know whether or not it is present? -
87
Why people don't believe in God
by pressman indo you want to know why i think people don't believe in god?
well i believe people don't want to believe in god because they are scared.
they know that if they finally do gorge the confidence to believe in him, he might discipline them for their skepticism.
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Viviane
Woah. i assure you that god does not pick clowns like that to represent him.
Again, god can tell us. And, if you are telling us this without proof, you are just as much a clown as they.
but that's why i'm trying to tell you guys that you don't have to be arrogant.
Yeah, but you are telling us to trust you, that you know what god wants and you are here to deliver this message and you are totes not a clown like those other clowns and you are here to help save us.
Clownish arrogance to the height, that.
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87
Why people don't believe in God
by pressman indo you want to know why i think people don't believe in god?
well i believe people don't want to believe in god because they are scared.
they know that if they finally do gorge the confidence to believe in him, he might discipline them for their skepticism.
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Viviane
loveuni, you are proving my point. you fear god and the belief of him. why? because your human and we humans are natural wimps
Why would he be afraid of something he doesn't believe in? He said IF God were real.... you're missing the condition necessary for the fear.
As for being a wimp, speak for yourself.
what im trying to tell you is that god does not want you to be afraid. because if you just identify the true god, there will not be anything to worry about.
If god is real and loves us, it can personally tell me, not rely on a faulty messenger.
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Bible Group in Boston
by Agape.Love inhappy easter!
my husband and i who are former jws are starting a new bible discussion group on sundays @1pm, south of boston.
we will begin the group on sunday may 3rd.
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Viviane
While the Bible may introduce you to Jesus Christ, you need to accept him, and allow him through Holy Spirit to reside in you.
Hope this makes sense.No, it makes none. Without the Bible, the bloody, genocidal, rape, theft and murder filled OT you don't get Jesus. The Bible is the basis for your belief in Jesus and somehow some Christians decide to chuck it.
Why?
Also, what is this holy spirit? Where in you does it live? Can it be found on an MRI? What is it made of?
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87
Why people don't believe in God
by pressman indo you want to know why i think people don't believe in god?
well i believe people don't want to believe in god because they are scared.
they know that if they finally do gorge the confidence to believe in him, he might discipline them for their skepticism.
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Viviane
Go to a childrens hospital and find some 4 to 8 year old little girl with a terrible ailment caused by birth defects or some terrible disease.
We have some posters here saying there is value in child rape. That's the kind of thinking "because Jesus" leads you to.