Posts by PoconosKnows

12

Talk about depressed

by zeb in

my wife is preparing to spend hundreds on a lap top to take into the field service.

i carefully mentioned that the wts has gone from condemning the web to now using it.. her reply" no they never condemned it just said to people to be careful in using it".

my memories of convention speakers must be different and" this is the way things are now; its all downloaded from the web".. with that as a given then why isnt the wts issuing computers to any one who wants one?

PoconosKnows

It is the wave of the future. So why not go with it? I mean, it makes life easier for many of us. What is the difference if you write your notes on paper - or prefer to jot them down electronically in the meetings? After all, some people can do a "search" later on to find a keyword quickly, for speed of reference.

Isn't it easier to have all your contacts, schedule, KH books, notes, telephone numbers in one thin tablet vs. various heavy books? I applaud that they wanted to get out of the older century technologies, it just makes sense. Yes, the whole WT library is available electronically through an app. JW.org app on google play, itunes. You can have your songbook and wt articles. If you add on another app, that allows for drawing, (or some tablets have it built in) it may allow you to highlight your answers on the screen over the WT articles, without having to print them out. I used to highlight mine in yellow on the lines' answers. And looked up songs from the songbook. I like the use of the real bible though, like on their website - you can access the bible pages too for scripture quickly by typing the scripture in.

10

URGENT MESSAGE

by love2Bworldly in

did anyone else get a huge all caps urgent message showing at the top of your screen where sometimes ads are?

the words were so big, it jumped out at me and it was weird.

i did not click on it, and hope it's not a virus or something..

PoconosKnows

I got that message too. I am brand new here, but saw it. Maybe a spam - lure?

170

Sign this petition - Investigation On Jehovahs Witnesses Religious Policy That Violates Human Rights and Abuses Religious Freedom

by TJ Curioso in

launch an investigation on jehovahs witnesses religious policy that violates human rights and abuses religious freedom.

link.

PoconosKnows

What I read - was - that the UN has to make suggestions of policy reform, Chaserious, that offer protection to prevent future serious harm to the public - is what I saw on the UN site. It doesn't say they review all future material - but makes certain recommendations. I agree with you, it is hard to prove - but if coercive practices are not allowable by corporations - or the use of hate speech, I know that hate speech is considered "criminal" - and there are places to report that as well in the government - to get that corrected, or recognized. Even the FBI has a link about reporting "hate crimes" - I don't know how the FBI handles those reportings of "hate speech", just I have read - they encourage the reporting of slander against people, or groups of people. It just makes sense. Okay - I want to explore other topics, outside of this one. I really have nothing else to contribute, since anything I comment on - seems to go into debate here. I hope everyone has a good new year.

170

Sign this petition - Investigation On Jehovahs Witnesses Religious Policy That Violates Human Rights and Abuses Religious Freedom

by TJ Curioso in

launch an investigation on jehovahs witnesses religious policy that violates human rights and abuses religious freedom.

link.

PoconosKnows

Simon - are you singling me out because I am passionately defending my original post - and I do not appreciate people putting down my remarks, as you can see by the history of this thread. My comments and points were torn apart since my original post. I am defending them - 1 by 1 -like anyone else did - when they see unfair remarks on a topic. From my search, I do believe AAWA writers are responsible for the writings. Wow. I didn't know my freedom of expression of thought was not welcomed here.

170

Sign this petition - Investigation On Jehovahs Witnesses Religious Policy That Violates Human Rights and Abuses Religious Freedom

by TJ Curioso in

launch an investigation on jehovahs witnesses religious policy that violates human rights and abuses religious freedom.

link.

PoconosKnows

I believe what is being said here is, a religion should not have the power to impose "threats" upon placing any restrictions on human rights, or it should be looked at as a form of extremism, if it results in deaths by suicide. The JW's are a corporation - that act as a religious institution, and any corporation that imposed "hate speech" upon blacks or gays would not be tolerated - so why call people "mentally diseased" (in the present day - with the present zero tolerance of stigmatization "craze" that is sweeping our nation) those who wish to convert? Tarnishing the reputation of those from their own family associations? It needs to be investigated. But I do believe, if anything is done by the legal departments of the agencies, this has to spill out to the other religions that shun, as well. I just never knew - until reading all the forums on the internet - how many suicides and depression, and suicide attempts (that failed) - this policy caused. It was upsetting, to say the very least. And shameful, that any policy could have the "power" to compel people to lose their life. Whether it was intentional or not.

170

Sign this petition - Investigation On Jehovahs Witnesses Religious Policy That Violates Human Rights and Abuses Religious Freedom

by TJ Curioso in

launch an investigation on jehovahs witnesses religious policy that violates human rights and abuses religious freedom.

link.

PoconosKnows

Chaserious, and AdamH - Who knows if this will fly? Nobody. I don't. But:

To suggest that you need case law to go forward is not true.

To suggest that they cannot do anything but "write a letter" is not true, to the UN.

To suggest that nothing has been markedly done yet - is not true. Even the Catholics have now had to "prove" all the policies are now safe (concerning children) - although that is another topic, but it shows the power they have. This happened - this year - after years of the church not changing policy... http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/07/11/pope-expands-sex-abuse-laws-in-response-to-u-n-criticisms.html

If the Catholics are heeding to the UN's suggestion to change policy, what makes you think that the JW's will not be made a subject of embarrasment by the UN - being marked as religious policies that need change, if they are proven that are harmful to society, if they cause suicide?

Is bullying permitted in this day and age that cause suicide? It was when I was growing up. Things have changed - for the better. (Thank goodness). This is a form of religious bullying that is creating a new topic of investigation.

By the way - they are not saying in the title of the petition that they are intending to sue via a class action sweep / they are pushing that the policies get investigated - for the policy change.

Okay, thank you Besty- I want to speak with others on the other topics in the forums - I have just left this org. in Feb. and want to connect with everyone. I am glad to have found this network this week - because this topic lured me in... : ] I have been a witness since birth, and left in February.

170

Sign this petition - Investigation On Jehovahs Witnesses Religious Policy That Violates Human Rights and Abuses Religious Freedom

by TJ Curioso in

launch an investigation on jehovahs witnesses religious policy that violates human rights and abuses religious freedom.

link.

PoconosKnows

If you read the entire UN report, and links - which I have taken the time to do, at various links by the Special Rapporteur (who heads the religious stigmatization issues), on the UN page also, you will see - any religion can be reported as a violator of religious freedom, when it involves "hate speech" - or causing any violation of the articles of the human rights, "no interference with family" "no interference with correspondence" (that the JW's have wrote about not even to send an email to those members who leave) follows suit. That is why they are being reported. It is not as cut and dry as "separation of church and state" and nothing else will uphold. Because emotional torture - is a form of psychological torture - they will not just look the other way anymore, as some of you suggest that the courts will. Since deaths are occuring - this matter will probably not be ignored. The UN has a committee that sends a report to the institution - (if you read the full links on the UN) suggesting that they change the doctrines that are harmful, or the court can order that policies must be safe, in order to protect society.

Even the Catholics have now had to "prove" all the policies are now safe (concerning children) - although that is another topic, but it shows the power they have. http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2013/07/11/pope-expands-sex-abuse-laws-in-response-to-u-n-criticisms.html

The Catholics did not argue (as of late) on the separation of church and state issue - and then nothing was done - instead they are reforming the policies that were harmful to children. Did you see that reporting? Again - that is a different form of abuse - but psychological abuse is categorized as "torture" - and "emotional torture" cannot be "tolerated" - since it is an abuse of religious freedom. A people do have the right to "freely associate" and "correspond" with family by email - if they choose. Also the human right that the JW's "violate" against the right to change a belief in the area of "conversion". The S. Rapporteur talks about being coerced "back" to a religion - once someone makes the decision to go ahead and convert out of it. (family association).

Please realize something - You do not need cases that prove your case in every instance - case law is an excellent resource, but many cases tried by the DOJ were cases that established the case law. Just like the JW's established some case law for their right to freedom of conscience (ironically). This may be one of those cases. Who knows? It is so true, a right for one is a right for all. Isn't it? You can't say - we object to war because of our consicence, and the court grants that right - and protects your consicence freedom - and then deny people - the right to convert out - without grave consequence of being slandered as "evil" - and unworthy to associate with (in your family). That is so WRONG.

Each governmental agency now has a complaint procedure - it is not about "just writing a letter" as someone suggested. There are complaint procedures - under EVERY category of abuse. I was on the site - and I saw that with my own eyes. They are following the complaint procedures, without signatures, and they said they have now hundreds of testimonials on families being ripped apart - and varied suicides - as I read through it. I believe this is what they are doing. Zalkin's firm did not announce that they are representing them, just that he has shared the petition with interested parties on his page, because that was the only post people are "buzzing" about.

170

Sign this petition - Investigation On Jehovahs Witnesses Religious Policy That Violates Human Rights and Abuses Religious Freedom

by TJ Curioso in

launch an investigation on jehovahs witnesses religious policy that violates human rights and abuses religious freedom.

link.

PoconosKnows

The person who said that comment about changing the petition - as far as I can see - they haven't changed their stance on any of the matters. They changed the focus to coercion which was already within the body of the text. Links were added for their proof Articles. Maybe they were getting complaints about it. Petitions don't allow for text to be dropped that significantly changes any of the issues or it is flagged in the editing, I had one 2 years ago (non-religious), only small changes, headings, footnotes, citations, are the things I was allowed to change b/t/w

170

Sign this petition - Investigation On Jehovahs Witnesses Religious Policy That Violates Human Rights and Abuses Religious Freedom

by TJ Curioso in

launch an investigation on jehovahs witnesses religious policy that violates human rights and abuses religious freedom.

link.

PoconosKnows

There is a correlation in freedom of religion AND Religious coercion. Since, religious freedom was originally designed for people to practice religion without having a state religion imposed on them - it does not give them the right to trample on a person's right to "freely associate", so coercion comes into play ... it is coercive to force people to attend - without the right to convert. They are not allowing the right for conversion, so it is religious coercion - (as clearly defined in the petition) by the UN Elimination of All Forms of Intolerance, Persecution and Discrimination Based on Religion or Belief, As Defined By The UN Convention on Religious Intolerance. So - this argument we keep hearing about church and state may be up for negotiation - since the UN said: (pasted below):

The Special Rapporteur then focuses on the right of conversion as part of freedom of religion or belief. In this context, he distinguishes the following four subcategories: (a) the right to conversion, in the sense of changing one’s own religion or belief; (b) the right not to be forced to convert; (c) the right to try to convert others by means of non-coercive persuasion; and (d) the rights of the child and of his or her parents in this regard. The Special Rapporteur outlines the international human rights framework and specific violations for each of these subcategories and addresses some typical misunderstandings.

In his conclusions and recommendations, the Special Rapporteur calls upon States to consistently respect, protect and promote the human right to freedom of religion or belief in the area of conversion. He reiterates that the right to conversion and the right not to be forced to convert have the status of unconditional protection under international human rights law. Freedom of religion or belief includes the right to try to persuade others in a non-coercive manner; any restrictions on missionary activities deemed necessary by States must strictly abide by article 18 (3) of the International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.

That is why, the former JW's can make a valid case at the UN, (to the Rapporteur - who made the above statement) - which they may have already done, (but still gathering signatures for their support.) The JW's do not allow the changing of belief, and the UN classifies that as "coercion" to "compel one's right to convert or RECONVERT" BACK to a former religion. (by keeping one's family away from them). It is by force - that makes many feel they MUST go back to the religion.

170

Sign this petition - Investigation On Jehovahs Witnesses Religious Policy That Violates Human Rights and Abuses Religious Freedom

by TJ Curioso in

launch an investigation on jehovahs witnesses religious policy that violates human rights and abuses religious freedom.

link.

PoconosKnows

The petition has been updated and is now being supported by the Zalkin law firm, and they are sharing the petition - since it does have substantial good points, and is in fact - substantiated with links to the human rights articles (people seemed to be questioning their proof of sources on this thread - bad-mouthing it, well - it is all on there - see for yourself.
They are not waiting for the signatures to be completed; they are filing with the governmental agencies BEFORE they get the signatures, regardless. I have read this by the person who started that petition. They realize that gaining the signatures shows the support of people, who substantiate the cause, but are filing the complaints anyway.

On this petition... It has CHANGED... disregard the comments regarding the old petition, since the new one is here: https://www.change.org/petitions/launch-an-investigation-to-determine-if-jehovah-s-witnesses-have-a-right-to-use-coercion-forms-of-mental-torture-to-force-its-members-not-to-leave

All the people who have posted negative comments, really need to re-read it now, since I know for a fact, that the verbiage has changed on it since it was originally posted.

They are going after coercion. What is being recognized by government is that all forms of religious persecution - cannot be tolerated, if it is harmful - and coerces a person to reconvert back to the religion, or would deny a person the right to "freely asociate with their own family. They DO have a case.

Many people here are arguing points, yet they are moving forward - with or without waiting for all signatures; they are not relying on them for the success. They have the "hate speech" mapped out by the society's publications that show they are unfairly "persecuting' converts by denying them access to their families, (almost like a terrorist would, for a lack of a better example).

It is not Christian-like to me. Nothing Jesus would advocate, and it seems to be a form of extremism. Jesus' example showed love to even the lesser people (prostitute, criminal on the "stake" next to him, and promised that the man would be with him in heaven, it was not judgmental and full of hate).

The human rights policy says - nobody should interfere with your family; persecute a person for conversion away from a belief. Witnesses fought for the right to be restricted from the military service (as the petition also stated). Yet, do not allow the freedom of choice of conscience in their own members choice or belief. So again, I agree with all the points, because people are committing suicide over not being able to be with their family. When they have found good reason to leave the organizaiton for their flip-flop of doctrines, bible passages that were proven to be faulty, etc.