HAPPY BIRTHDAY !!!
and Welcome...
I'm fairly new myself and it has been nothing but great experiences (give or take a couple of threads dedicated to sarcasm and wit)... If you don't like something, speak up... no one here will shun you...
gambit
gambit
JoinedPosts by gambit
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41
I am going to try hanging out with you people
by CruithneLaLuna inhello, new member here.. i registered a couple of years ago, but my initial experiences here were not of the warm/fuzzy variety, which must have been what i needed at the time; so, i left.
recenty, a friend gently suggested that i might want to give interacting here a second try.. so's i don't have to type it twice, i offer here a hyperlink to my member profile.. although one might reasonably be named "cruithne" - especially if one is irish or scottish - it is not my real name.
well, of course it is my real name, in that i choose to be known by it.
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gambit
Scooby --
Go to the bookstore or library and get a copy of "What Color is Your Parachute?"
Best career strategy book on the market. Only a couple chapters apply to interviews, specifically, but the entire book will help you understand why your interviewing for the job you THINK you want in the first place.
Good luck...
Oh, and if you can, schedule another interview somewhere where you don't give a rat's *ss a day or so before or just go out for dinner all dressed up the night before... sounds silly, but an hour or two beforehand trying to carry yourself will help you feel more relaxed.
gambit
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207
Jehovah's Witnesses Are Under Mind Control
by minimus inif you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".
it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.
how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?
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gambit
Garybuss -
Im am 42 yo, left the org at 18... I "knew" I had to cause it felt wrong, but didn't understand it all. One of my brothers, 2 years older than me, was disfellowshipped when I was 16, he was 18. He was kicked out by my father and told he wasn't welcome home. This is not heresay, I was there to watch and hear it all. I was told NOT to associate with him (or my oldest brother) as they where bad influences.
I never got dunked, and moved on with my life as soon as possible (that is, I finished HS and got a job)... I ended up living on the streets, under viaducts, and hitching rides all across the country for a year or so. I started in Colorado, ended up in very rural Alabama homeless, penniless, the clothes on my back (and a brief case of STYX and STONES albums... pretty funny ! Music paid for a lot of meals !!! )... I located my DF'd brother and he put me up while I attempted to detox, but I went further down hill. He ended up moving on with his life (by way of thumb) but I was too numb to go on.
To cut to the chase, it took me years to put my life together... having kids was a blessing for me, since I was able to grow up all over again, taking more lessons from them (socially) than they know and always being an emotional supporter of their goals. 2-3 years ago, as my two oldest left home, I began going through sever depression, anxiety, lack of concentration, and all sorts of other "strange" symptoms... Mid-life crisis some say... NOT... I finally realized something... a lot of things I was taught, which I was unaware I was taught, stuck with me... Like, you talk marriage before you kiss, you accept anything someone dishes out to you in the name of love, masturbation is a sin, going down is a perverse act, the woman is submissive in a marriage... shall I go on... THIS IS ALL CRAP, B*LLSH*T, and, taught VERY, VERY WRONG !!!
So, don't call it "mind control" if you don't want to. Don't matter, cuz the effect is the same. It was my parents responsibility to be parents, not to pawn the job off on some self-righteous publishing company that can wash it's hands of any wrong doing... "Cause it's just a publishing company"...
BTW My formative years (9-14) were spent hearing over and over and over how 1975 was going to be the end of the world...
In conclusion, yes gary, I agree with all your arguments... they do admit free will, they do admit that they choose to be the way you are, they are responsible... I guess if none of the other examples have made the point, I will try one more... every teenager is wiser and smarter than his/her parents !!! Just ask them !!! It's called growth... those that grow THROUGH the process, realize they needed some guidance and reassurance that they were wiser and smarter than a little kid. A mature parent will step aside and let their kids grow through this process and become self-sustaining adults. Immature parents (eg the borg) will never relinquish control or decision making and just simply be there to help when the chips fall... no immature parents will continue to chastise, criticize, harangue, and shun children who don't follow in the parents footsteps. This too, is pitiful mind-control.gambit ** wiping the sweat off his forehead, and feeling like he just let go of a ton of anger **
Gary - you have a PM
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STINKYPANTZ: has a new job!!
by RAYZORBLADE in.
stinkypantz: shout it from the rooftops, you got yerself one helluva a job!.
tell us all.....we have to know, and at the same time, congratulate you on landing it....from what i remember, they loved you, and you're going to be getting more $$..
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gambit
SP -- Is that your secret ? Guess you told the right person !
CONGRATULATIONS !
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Jehovah's Witnesses Are Under Mind Control
by minimus inif you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".
it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.
how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?
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gambit
Heathen --
I think they do use voodoo techniques as well .
LOL ! That is great ! I wouldn't doubt it.
Bullfrog -- Welcome. You're free. Great post. Hope to read more of what you have to say.
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207
Jehovah's Witnesses Are Under Mind Control
by minimus inif you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".
it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.
how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?
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gambit
Minimus --
IMHO, you're beating a dead horse. garybuss is centering his position around responsibility, not mind control. I don't believe he refuted anything I said, on his behalf BTW... So, here is what I gather... psychobabble, look out...
garybuss believes that by saying the WTBTS uses mind control, he exonerates the individual. Thus, if gary where to take this position, he would not be able to "cast stones" at others that are still under the influence. In addition, I hear traces of gary's own self-directed anger because he does feel responsible for some of the "wrongs" he committed. Again, he doesn't want to free himself from this guilt... That's a commendable personal position, ie, to try to right one's wrongs, but I argue, that through understanding what really happened, the corrections could be made in a positive, giving way rather than in a frustrated manor.
gary -- I want you to understand that I am not writing this as an attack. My point is to determine whether you agree with minimus or not, concerning the "Mind Control" independent of responsibility. You points are well taken, but I am confused about your actual answer.
jgnat -- very well said and I agree completely --
If we use the "abused spouse" analogy a little further, what can be done for an abused partner that is so under the influence of her abuser that she is incapable of leaving? Not very much. One can try coersion, but then we are no different than her abuser. Besides, a weak person who is coerced to leave, is just as vulnerable to being sucked back in.
We can work at building that person's confidence in their own decision-making power, so that they have the strength to leave if they chose to. This takes a long time, and it can be excruciating to watch. It is like watching a person leisurely pick at their ropes as a locomotive bears down on them. But I have yet to come up with an easier method.
So in the end, it must come down to personal responsibility to leave or stay, because nobody else can do it for them. To admit to personal responsibility is not the same as denying that there is mind-control.
I would like to add that I believe it is more painful to watch an "abused spouse" situation that it is a JW. One - on - One control is soooo personally life threatening in ALL ways. As a bystander sometimes it feels like all you can do is hope that their really is a god who cares, and start praying. My heart goes out to those in this position. And yes, these people are victims of victims... I beleive that.
gambit
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Jehovah's Witnesses Are Under Mind Control
by minimus inif you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".
it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.
how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?
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gambit
Gary --
It seems as though we are debating two different issues here. I do believe in personal responsibility, and I hold myself responsible and accountable for my actions and I hold JW's responsible and accountable for theirs. When I left the borg at 18, I knew I had to live with myself and that living in the borg wouldn't allow it. So, as soon as I was "legally" or "emotionally" mature enough I assumed responsibility. My sister is still in, at 40 yo, and yes, she feels she is a JW by her own free will and she likes it and she could leave anytime she wants. So, you and I are in agreement with this.
Please, read Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steven Hassan. He details his time as part of the Unification Church (Moonies)... He assumes full responsibilty for everything he did prior to being a moonie, while being a moonie, and after leaving the moonies. He has a lot of the same hangups... guilty about some of his actions, sad about the way he was thinking, angry that it happened... but, he argues very wisely, that he was still being influenced by subtle (and not so subtle) forms of mind control.
I mentioned in my previous post that "mind control" is more than just controlling thoughts... it can be brought about using ONLY behavior control, which is what you implied when you said --
The're under body control. The Society wishes they had the power of mind control.
I believe we are really in agreement here also.
We all have weak points, weak times in life where all points are weak, and simple weaknesses (passions, loves, dreams). The point, IMHO, of having family and REAL friends alongside you in life, is to have someone to share those weaknesses with so that we keep them conscious and can continue to strengthen ourselves through awareness. When you enter a relationship that has a narcissistic component to it, eg moonies, jw's, etc. unless you are aware (substitute educated or informed) of the nature of the relationship, you will continue to pour your heart and soul into it believing that someone is listening and the feedback is reflective of reality... When you find out that the reflection isn't reality at all, you have just experienced cognitive dissonance... you have been under mind control, whether it was intentional or not, it still happened.
I blame no one but myself for allowing this to happen to me... but I keep turning the TV on and watching commercials and buying adverstised products... The real problem lies in the degree and the awareness !!!! As Odrade said --
If mind control means I was forced to do that, then NO. I chose to act that way, based on the information I had. IMO, the only solid accusation I can make against WTS in that case is "control of information flow."
The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (aka Jehovah's Witness) is a destructive mind controlling cult !!!
gambit ** that felt soooo good to say **
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Jehovah's Witnesses Are Under Mind Control
by minimus inif you were to tell a witness that they were "brainwashed" or that they were "under mind control", they certainly would not rationally accept it.the reason is because witnesses cannot distinguish between mind control and "obeying the faithful and discreet slave".
it is only after a person stops exposing himself to the subtle mind controlling tactics of the watchtower that a person can see how thoroughly duped they are in their beliefs.
how might you be able to tell that you are no longer your own person, able to make your own decisions in your life?
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gambit
Garybuss (and others that agree with him) -- You are right.
Minimus (and others that agree with him) -- You are right.I am going to quote Steven Hassan in Combatting Cult Mind Control a number of times in this post.
I do not 100% agree with everything Hassan has to say, but I do agree with the quotes used here and he says things much better than I can.Pg 7 -
"Mind control" may be understood as a system of influences that disrupts an individual's
identity (beliefs, behavior, thinking, and emotions) and replaces it with a new identity.
In most cases, the new identity is one that the original identity would strongly object to
if it knew in advance what was in store.Not all mind control techniques are inherently bad or unethical; for some, the manner
in which they are used is what is important. The locus of control should always remain
within the individual.Pg 44-45 :
Phobias: The Force that Robs Cult Members' Freedom
What do phobia have to do with cult groups and mind control? In some cults, members are
systematically made to be phoic about ever leaving the group. Today's cults know how to
effectively implant vivid negative images deep within members' unconscious minds, making
it impossible for the member to even conceive of ever being happy and successful outside
of the group.Pg 55 :
"Brainwashing" is typically coercive. The person knows at the outset that he is in the
hands of an enemy. It begins with a clear demarcation of the respective roles - who is
prisoner and who is jailer - and the prisoner experiences an absolute minimum of choice.Pg 59 :
The Four Components of Mind Control
As I have come to see it, mind control may be largely understood by analysis of the three components
described by Lean Festinger, a pschologoist, in what has become known as the "cognitive dissonance
theory". These components are control of behavior, control of thoughts, and control of emotions.
Each component has a powerful effect on the other two: change one, and the others will tend to
follow. Succeed in changing all three, and the individual will be swept away. However, from my
experience in researching destructive cults, I have added one additional compnonent which is vital:
control of information. If you control the information someone receives, you restrict his free
ability to think for himself.Steven Hassan describes in detail all four components. Most importantly, this is what he says about information control --
Pg 65 :
Information control also extends across all relationships. People are not allowed to talk to each
other about anything critical of the leader, doctrine, or organization. Members must spy on each
other and report imporper activites or comments to leaders... Most importantly, people are told
to avoid conact with ex-memvers or critics. those who could provide the most information are the
ones to be especially shunned.In summary of this discussion, Steven Hassan states:
Pg 66 :
Together, the form a totalistic web, which can manipulate even the strongest-minded people. In fact,
it is the strongest-minded individuals who make the most involved and enthusiastic cult members.Before I answer the Minimus' question, I want to assure myself part of the class of individuals that garybuss will "have little interest in perusing that topic with". Is education a form of mind control, or, more generally, is living in society a form of mind control?
I would unequivocally answer YES to both of these questions. The education system in the US is a form of mind control. We only study historical events from the US perspective, we have books censored because they open peoples minds to "politically incorrect" behaviors, attitudes, and/or political positions. We, as a society, conform to and live within this education system because we choose to. Because we believe it is better than others or maybe because it would emotionally cost us too much to move 1/2 way around the world to obtain a more open form of education. Whichever the case, we have free will to not attend this educational system (although we could be punished).
Now, in response to Minimus --
There are degrees to everything, and there are individual responses to everything. For whatever reason (or lack thereof), eg. childhood, abuse, emotional awareness, etc. people will respond and recover differently from identical forms of trauma. Some will be able to process the after effects of the trauma they experienced more easily than others. Some will be able to resolve the cognitive dissonance, others will not.
As in Love and War, everyones experience and emotional investment is different. For example, extramarital[?] affairs and divorce are part (or a way) of life for some. For others, these events create cognitive dissonance and these individuals have therefore been subjected to mind-control.
So, I argue, that you are under extreme mind control as a Jehovah's Witness if you are experiencing cognitive dissonance and yet continue to follow along, just as the wife of an abusive husband who cannot muster the willpower to leave. (My apologies to any I offend with this statement. I am in no way trying to minimize such a traumatic situation.)
From my perspective, and from my relationships with my family, Jehovah's Witnesses are under mind control. More so that you and I. They have been given a restricted source of information, been told how they must behave in order to obtain an everlasting life, told how to "think" about their own flesh and blood who happen to disagree with their spiritual beliefs, and they are held "emotional hostages" out of fear, guilt, and loneliness.
Do they have free will to choose? Yes, they do. And I had free will went I went to college, which, BTW, I only did to get a piece of paper so I could make enough money to support my family... therefore a victim of social mind control... Now, I WANT to go to school to take classes I enjoy and find personal satisfaction in.
gambit
Gary Buss also stated --
Education, influence and free will are different things. One popular opinion here is that the Witness people have no free will. I disagree with that. I made every decision to do every action as a Witness of my own free will. Was I deluded? Often, yes! Were my actions pragmatic? Many were not. Did I have choices? Yes!
de·lud·ed, de·lud·ing, de·ludes
To deceive the mind or judgment of --Gary, If your mind or judgement where often decieved by someone or something you had 100% trust in, you wouldn't consider this a form of mind control? I am in no way eliminating your own responsibility in the situation... but, honestly, you wouldn't consider this a form of mind control? Interesting !
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MY SWAN SONG
by northern girl inabout seven weeks ago i posted here for the first time.
in that post i said i'd like to be reinstated but felt it likely wouldn't happen because the shunning was too much for me.
well, my prayers have been answered and i am reinstated.
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gambit
Thanks for listening to me...
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Death, Grief & Spirituality
by cruzanheart inyesterday evening i took jennie & jackson to journey of hope, which is a grief support group for families who have lost loved ones, aimed particularly at the children.
i was thinking we might be past the need to go, because jennie & jackson seemed to be doing well, and i was feeling better about dad's death.
the children were asked to draw pictures: on one side of the paper they were to draw the bad things that happened last year, and on the other side of the paper what they wanted to be good or fix this year.. when my group joined the others downstairs, jennie ran to me and said jackson was crying and couldn't stop.
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gambit
Nina -- You are so kind and warm. What a beautiful mom (and person). Your kids (and hubby) are lucky. That story really choked me up. It sounds like you really found yourself and are therefore able to nurture your children in their best behalf. This little story really stung... I only wish someone, anyone, 20 years ago (or more) would have asked how I was feeling and be there to honestly listen. Thanks for sharing.
gambit